cohort in progress · episode 01 · 30 Dec 2025 · 1 hr 13 min
The real value of a DBA, with Dr. Sunil Wattal
About this episode
Our first episode, recorded in person at MNYK Studios in Philadelphia. Dr. Sunil Wattal, Associate Dean of Research and Doctoral Programs at Temple University’s Fox School of Business, a professor of Management Information Systems and a Harold Schaefer Senior Fellow, explains why the DBA exists, how it differs from a PhD, and what success looks like for executive doctoral education.
Then Sunil’s own research on attention, distraction and consumer behavior: how fake news spreads, how distraction strategies shape decisions, and what AI means for the future of research, with examples running from Red Lobster to Cheez Whiz.
Key moments
- Why a DBA exists, and why not just a PhD
- Herbert Simon: industry and academia are oil and water
- Applied research versus academic research
- Is a DBA a “PhD light”?
- Four steps of research, and the two bookends a DBA adds
- PhD and DBA students in the same room
Full transcript
auto-generated from the recording and lightly corrected for names · select a time to play from there
Welcome to the first episode of Cohort in Progress. It's a podcast. We're going to talk about bringing academia and
practice and putting them together. I'm Kevin Burgess, one of your co-hosts and joined by Ashwini Bascar. And just like
Kevin, I'm also uh the current DBA student at Fox School of Business. And today we are joined by uh the big chief
himself Sunil Water who is associate dean of uh doctoral pro doctoral programs and research at Temple School of Business.
He's also a professor of management information systems um and a Harold Schaefer senior fellow. Oh wow.
His his CV is like nine pages long.
Wow. [laughter] He's he's published so many things. He's probably the most modest person I've met.
Sure. uh and and he's such an incredible guest and he he focuses on I want to get it right focuses on online communities
um consumer behavior social media and the sharing sharing economy soil welcome welcome and if we had a big live
audience we'd be going crazy crazy exactly [laughter] so welcome welcome to the show so thank you guys again thanks for the
generous introduction and also uh for doing this podcast I mean um I you know being the associate dean of
research. I like to tell everyone uh both the faculty and the students in my school that research has to be very inclusive
right in the sense that if the idea of doing research is that you are going to be a thought leader and the first rule of
being a thought leader is that you have to let the world know that you're a thought leader and again the podcast think through not
only through journals and articles but also through things like podcast you know and so I'm glad you guys are doing it and you
creating some ideas and and introducing them to the world.
Yeah, we're happy to have you. What um let's let's take a step here. A DBA program, it's fairly new, especially in the world of academics, right? Like 15
years or so. Is that how long the DBA programs been been around?
I mean, ours has been around like 12 years now. Okay.
And we were one of the first to start, right?
So, what's a DBA? I think a lot of people think don't they think accounting isn't accounting like a DBA or something? People confuse DBA with are you database administrator?
That's what it is. Yeah.
Right. So I mean tell us a little bit about what was why DBA was necessary. I
mean why not just PhD? What was the uh I mean what was the motivation behind starting a program like this?
Right. I think that that that's a great question. Um and and DBA is by the way it's one of my favorite programs. uh I love to uh be associated with the
program and now in my in my role I mean I oversee the program at the Fox School but I also mentored the students uh and in fact I started mentoring right from
the first cohort. So so it's been it's been a great experience. I think the DBA serves an important purpose. I mean very
often we talk about in universities that um you know the universities especially the business schools and the research we
do is kind of disconnected from from the industry and you know it's not not many people know about the research that's
that's going on. So there has to be some kind of a of a translation um between what we do in the business schools and how and what gets
transmitted or transferred to to the industry practitioners to the practitioners. So uh and I and that's this my one of my favorite quotes
from uh from Herbert Simon who was um who won the Nobel Prize. Um so he uh he
said that industry and academia are like oil and water. They don't you can shake them you can force them to be together but in the end if you leave them alone
they they kind of separate they just se naturally separate out right and uh so so for a long time it it's
been that way but I think uh the DBA program helps us to bridge that gap
because by bringing in people who are directly connected with the problems right that they're trying to solve through
their research we can we have research which is relevant as well as impactful.
So uh so that's you know that's very powerful in terms of the progression of the research enterprise of a business
school. So so what I'm hearing you say is with the there was a diffusion problem right I mean the research that all these universities are are creating is not
diffusing um rapidly or or not diffusing at all.
What do you mean by diffusing? uh is not being adopted or being used, right? They're not putting into it into practice,
right? Is that was that is that did I paraphrase that right?
Right. I mean, you guys have been in the industry for a while. How many academic journals have you read before before joining the program? That is a great question.
Yeah. Zero may maybe one or two. Yeah. Well, they cost money. Right.
Right. And they Right. They're not easily accessible especially outside outside academia. And then Yeah. people have no reason to
to to to look them up. So I mean so so things have to change uh you know with that right but I have to say that you know
with with my uh consulting background you know we we in all the big five consulting companies um including you
know McKenzie's and the the uh BCGs of the world they do do some amount of applied research right
so uh how how is or maybe this is a different topic altogether as to what the difference between applied research and what we will end up doing as PhD
programs. So maybe the motivation is a little bit different. I think there you're trying to sell things versus here you're just doing research for the
purpose of pure research. Would you would you say that's a that's a good characterization?
Yeah, I mean it's a little simplistic but kind of it summarizes the the main point. I mean research in academia is um
I mean it's it's pure in the sense it's more rigorous. Oh okay. So it's it's very scientific.
You identify a problem uh you try to find like deeper theories
which can explain that problem uh and then you propose the hypothesis you know get your data and show the results. So
that's that's a scientific process. But most of the time in the the research that comes out of industry like skips a few steps.
Okay. which like you if like if you're ser like if you survey a group of people or a group of companies and then
summarize your findings. Um so again so you're not like really using any theory.
I mean it's not very clear about the generalizability is you're doing a great job explaining a particular phenomenon
like summarizing a phenomenon at that moment of time but what what can be can it be extrapolated to
what goes what goes beyond I think you know you don't get that from from the applied research from the applied research do you think there's some potential
almost danger to make those leaps that you're talking about like you're making decisions without all of the information and now all of a sudden you've made a a
million-dollar decision because you don't have everything in front of you.
Um I mean I I mean I think it's the way business has evolved and for most part it it works you [laughter] know. Yeah.
But uh and because again the way I think our things are geared uh you know the business is geared is that it's you work
for the next quarter the next year the stock price. So in that sense you're not there's little incentive to you know
look at look at the bigger picture in a more holistic way but you know you just see what the trends are what the short-term trends are and you know go by
actually that's a great point I think I didn't think about it like that that you know uh all these applied research that all the consulting companies industry is
talking about is really very topical what's happening today [clears throat] right it's not really generalizing to your point as you said that that
research cannot be generalized. It is so focused on solving a problem.
But isn't there inherent problem like academia is always a step behind, right?
Or at least that's the perception. So how is that is that kind of the idea about the DBA program too to kind of bridge that speed to academic research into the hands of of businesses?
Right. Yeah. I think that's uh that's that's true as well. uh again the way the academic research process works
because of all the checks and balances you can start a research project now and and if everything goes well like very
smoothly which it by the way 90% of papers are rejected [laughter] right you're learning that you're learning that hopefully not our
dissertations let's keep let's keep those on the right side I know so so even if everything goes well the by the time the paper will be published
it'll be no less than three years, two or three years at least. Oh wow.
So um so there's there's something going on right now, right? The word fake news, right? Right. Big big topic.
So you have credible looking sources and then you have credible sources. Mhm.
What's the distinction for the person that isn't in that world, right? Because you can get a maybe an article about
vaccines, right? there's a hot topic or article about something, you know, your uncle shares you something or or your friend shares you something and it looks legit, right?
It's like the the journal of whatever, right?
Right. Like what do you think? Like I mean, how do we combat that? What do you think?
Yeah, I think that that's an interesting question, right? I mean, how I mean it has become so germanine, too. I mean, you know, the the source, can you trust the news
sources that you're reading, especially in this age where news is traveling at a supersonic speed? Yeah.
Right. People forward it to 2,000 people on WhatsApp and there you go. It becomes viral and then it's real and then it's a fact. It becomes a fact.
But I think businesses act on that on those things maybe unintentionally.
Probably I would say I I I don't don't know. It's a very good question. H how do you figure out that you're getting uh not fake news but it's trustworthy?
Yeah, I think that's that's a hard question and I I don't think there are any podcast episode on it own. [laughter] Yes, exactly.
Yeah, I had actually done a podcast on fake news like a few few years ago but uh yeah I mean there's there's no right
or wrong answer. I think um what's we're seeing in the society is that I mean
there's very few ground truths anymore right I mean previously like before all the we
saw this all the fake news and talk and all about that I mean there were some like ground truths which people generally believed in that if like
the earth is round oh well [laughter] maybe that's not one of them anymore or you know if um like if the FDA says
something, it's it's science and it's it's trusted and and and all of that. So, I think some of
those things are like a lot of people question some of those things because uh because there's so much information
on on the contrary, right?
And for for most people, they don't distinguish between like what what what the source of the the
news is sources and sometimes or even what the claim is and if if it's cherrypicking you know you're just
cherrypicking some stuff or is it generalizable so you know most people don't care to do that right
and I think there could be many reasons for that it could be um people try to
go follow the news which supports their existing viewpoints you know so so it's in a in a way like it's become very gam gamified like gamified right
you know my news my truth is better than your truth [laughter] and you know coming back to the DBA and PhD part you know I I always had this um you
know question in my mind do you think sunil uh did DBAs get treated as light PhD do you think there is that
perception in the minds of people like the eye roll the eye [laughter] roll right what do you think
um I mean I don't I think so. I mean, well, obviously I can't speak speak for everyone, but Right.
But I think the way it's it's intended is not a PhD light.
Yeah. I mean, do you think he's going to say it's like come [laughter] on like Well, in terms of academia, right, from
an academic perspective, uh the rigor and the and the uh I guess discipline, uh would you say something is the same as the PhD program?
Right. I mean the the rigor is I mean definitely like the the theoretical background and the rigor I think we we do we do follow all all the steps.
Okay. I think where or where it is where the two diverge is um kind of I think
the the application like what you do with the do with the degree like once once you graduate because the the PhD program much longer
uh because you know the students are willing to put in those extra years because most of them want to go in an
academic career espec at least in in good business schools Right.
Whereas in a DBA program it you know and for and for that for uh like in a PhD you would um like gear yourself to
publish in those journals and wait those 3 five years for the papers to hit and all of that before you start your or you know at the time you start your career.
But for the DBA I mean I I don't think that holds much you know much value. I think the the people come to a DBA program with many different motivations.
Um and I think the I think one of the most common I have seen is the desire to get more knowledge or look at the
problems that you're facing in your work in a different way and you know try to be more scientific about it and see if
how how we can solve these problems you know [snorts] so that that is actually I I like that that you know the the motivation is very
different right here you're trying to maybe PhD program is geared more towards academy, I guess.
Whereas here in a DBA program, you're bringing in people, you know, like me or or or Kevin. I mean, at least 10 15 years of experience.
I'm the one without the suit. I'm doing it wrong. Like, [laughter] jeez. And I'm hosting this this you are hosting. Gosh. Yeah. The cool podcast look.
Yeah. [laughter] Is that what I'm going for? I'll take it. I'll take anything.
Get No, you're absolutely right. Well, it's it feels like there's got to be a lot of pressure in in your role. You know, you think
about it as as um each cohort, you know, you do the math, it's like three four million dollars, right, of of funding
that goes to the university. Everybody has different motivations, right, of what they're going to do with it.
How do you look at the ROI like on a cohort basis for the program? You mean for the DBA?
Yeah, for a DBA.
Yeah. I mean we're trying to do a better job of tracking the the outcomes and we we like we keep track of the the publications uh of of the students.
Okay.
And um so and and whenever they publish we we highlight that. I think that's one metric for us like you know you know are
the students still being research active. In fact, a few years ago, we started a program where people who graduate could still be part of the
school and access all the libraries and the journals. Oh, wow.
Uh through a nonredit program uh with like where you can just register for a minimal credit, but you can still be connected to your advisor.
Oh, that's nice.
So, I think that's definitely uh one part of it is to be more scholarly active. uh and that's also valued by
other universities like a lot of our facult a lot of our DBA students want to you know at some point go and teach in universities right
and again uh universities value the because of their accreditation requirements they value the terminal degrees and they value uh scholarly
activity from all faculty not only the not only the tenure tenure track faculty so so that's that's another uh you know
metric uh of you know um for for the program. Uh and and then it's also like a a lot of people continue in their
corporate jobs, but again the the DBA training gives them the ability to look at things in a more critical way, ask
the right ask the right questions, think more more long-term like instead of just how things work or why do they work this way, right?
And you know, always questions. So that some that helps in in their in their business career as as well,
right? So I think there are a lot of lot of um lot of ROI in terms of you know creating more research which is absolutely can be used immediately. I'm
just thinking about what the meetings in the room look like when you have conversations of like, do we increase our cohort size? Do we decrease it? How do you how do you make decisions like
that, right? Because those are probably pretty tricky decisions, right? You have staffing decisions to go along with it.
If you get too big then all of a sudden maybe it's a washed out program that you know Kevin asking a really good question and I remember Sunel you were [laughter] you
were talking about collaborating with one of the the the management schools back in India to say that they also want to start a DBA program.
Right.
Right. So obviously they are going through some of the stuff that Kevin is talking about.
You know in a meeting they're trying to decide like how do those get made? Yeah. Yeah. How do they get made?
Take us into the the Temple University here. [laughter] Like I don't actually don't actually invite me in there because you'll kick
me right out. But take us take us in the Yeah. No, I mean in terms of um the in terms of the cohort size, I mean we like
deliberately try to keep it small. We don't want it to to grow a whole lot because um because again it's it's a
very resource intensive pro program. I mean if it was any other program I would always say like more I mean to some
extent more the better like when you say resourcing staffing staffing and well not only the staffing but I think the more important the faculty okay
because uh with every student I mean obviously you need to I mean you with every cohort you don't not only need to
teach the classes which is I think the the easier part from a logistics perspective but then managing the dissertations for so you can imagine for
every student you need four faculty with three on the committee and one external reader so at least three but technically four so um
that's a lot of resources that is it's a lot of resources yeah so so so because so keeping in that in
mind we we so we you know in most of our meetings we never we always say we don't want to grow beyond 30 I think 30 is our
is our capacity and we try to aim for that 25 to 30 number in That's probably the sweet spot even in terms of delivery,
right? How you do the classes and how they kind of engage with each other.
I think the moment you make the cohort a little bit bigger I think it that whole personalization or goes away maybe
right but I think yeah I mean it depends. I think I would say from a classroom perspective like looking at our like I I've taught in our executive
MBA programs as well and I think a cohort size of like 40 to 50 is also manageable from a class perspective
because again um you know we do group work and you know so the students still get the the small group feeling but they also
get opportunity to meet more people and make more connections. So uh so again so I think that that that that that
works out but um but I think it's the dissertation part which um where is oneonone one-on-one stuff that
happens when the class as you said you know I picked up on that you said class part is the easy part right logistically yes right
yeah and you know you know work-wise the homework is the challenge in this program right so for sure for sure there's one problem.
Uhhuh.
I have to say, okay, you accepted somebody. Uhhuh. That you shouldn't have. Okay.
And it's me. Why? Like [laughter] it can't be that good of a program if you're accepting this guy.
Even before the first time is over, Kevin is out here, you know, revealing all the secrets of the cohort [laughter] in progress. Right. We're all in progress, right?
Trust me, you would have gone through at least one or two interviews and Oh, yes. Yes.
So, yeah, it's I tricked somebody, didn't I? [laughter] what changes do you want to see in the program and what have you learned from other programs across the country?
Um so in terms of the changes I think um I would definitely
so and one of the things we're working on is more globalization.
So um like this idea of bringing in students from having these connections with uh other programs
or even starting joint programs with other schools okay in in different parts of the world and and at some level
having our students interact with them uh you know wi with those students maybe like even just once
during their stay. So I think I I think that would be great because I think the world is is going global. So it's like
kind of um kind of the business imperative to hear from other people what the what the problems they face how
they are addressing those problems. So so I so I think that's uh definitely one of the things uh on my agenda and and we
are actively working towards towards that.
That actually is a great thing. I mean I think networking opportunities also increase when you are you know bringing people from abroad or maybe even taking
the class abroad right I mean a little bit of um like air is doing that I know uh cohort in Dubai for for a week or so
right right as part of the program and I think that's a great great idea right and a lot of our DBA students have expressed interest in those immersions
and I think I was telling somebody that most of the pro stu students who go on the program are DBA students like
there's only a few other master's students. So I think that's one the other part which I think some of the other schools are also doing and in fact
um I was talking to my friend at Georgia State I think they have even a requirement which is encouraging students to write more cases. Oh,
because again case study I think it's a fabulous form of scholarship where you're taking a real world problem and
and explaining it in a way that that there are key takeaways for for in a classroom setting. So I think
that's it would be great to have more of our DBA students. So so in fact we have we we do have since the last few years
we have seen a lot of interest among DBA students. In fact, I met a couple of students today. They're in in the second second year right now and they won
prizes for the cases they Oh, nice. They they they wrote. So, what's an example of one of those cases? Do you remember?
Um, one of the recent cases uh was on Red Lobster. Oh, really? Oh, yeah.
I do not know the details, but that was so Yeah, Red Lobster is just going through a lot of uh the CEO they just acquired a
new CEO. They went through a bankruptcy too. They went through bankruptcy.
Yeah. Not enough people eating the lobster rolls, right? I I think I think you know why went bankrupt? I think not to digress here, but it's not a digression. It's a podcast.
[laughter]
I think one of one of the the reasons was didn't they have those endless shrimp or something? Yes. All you can eat. Yeah.
All you can eat shrimp for a for a fixed price that that did them in. They totally killed them. My god. Seriously. No kidding.
Yeah. No kidding. Who I wonder who was the like their main customer that just did them in you know I wonder I mean people love shrimps.
People I guess all you can eat shrimp.
All you can eat shrimp. Can you believe that? Huh?
Was it Do you Was it around like their comeback or what they had to do or I did not read the case but I I everyone that's our homework we have
more homework now. I just gave ourselves more homework.
So good. I mean those those are actually nice changing a little bit more globalized you know getting students to write more case studies. is your your your cohort. What else are you thinking about?
Yeah. And also uh getting um again like I said the these are it seems for most people they're two distinct
like like DBA is like a distinct part of the business of the research enterprise. Mh.
So like most of our if you look at it most of our academic conferences like do are mainly geared for you know
the PhD style work. It's not um or or most of the people who go there
are PhD students. So like the DBS if even if they would would go they feel out of place like one of our faculty
who's also doing her DBA Sherry in the second year. So she had a paper accepted at the academy of management. So uh so
so she went there there last year but I I was and I was talking to her and I was thinking that you know it would be great if the the general academic societies
were more welcome like welcoming welcoming in the sense it's not they discourage but since the DBA programs
are new it's would be great if they would proactively encourage the DBA students to to join those societies and
be part of the and create special programming around. So you [snorts] know since the Academy of Management next year is going to be in Philadelphia. Oh wow.
So we're talking to them and seeing if we can create uh like a separate track for for just for the DBA program or you know where uh
that's a great idea. [snorts] That is a great idea.
I've always had that feeling a little bit of when you say you're in a DBA program you have to explain it and then you kind of say hey this is
it's like a PhD program but it's not you know for all the reasons we talked about. And by the time you you have the explanation with somebody the value is
almost lost or just like the background it's more of like the everyone knows a dissertation so I go to dissertation like we have we'll have to
do a dissertation right we'll have to do research so I think that's important to bridge that gap right yeah that's a good idea so I want to rewind a
little bit we jumped right into the program right but we didn't talk about you and how you got here how'd you get here and why do you like
research Arch like what? [laughter] Yeah, tell us your story.
That's another thing. I don't think a lot of DBAs probably like research. It's just an ends to a mean and and it's your life, right?
Yeah. I was I was a happy MBA at some point [laughter] working corporate. Right.
Yeah.
So um and and this was around now I'm aging myself but this was around the dotcom um boom
right and I was into business development in in in technology and and you and you realize that a lot of the decisions that
companies make do not seem very rational and you could see it firsthand that one day people were buying ton of stuff and
next day like it all you know it all came it was all gone. So you so that really got me interested in this topic of business value of it.
So what does it actually how does technology really add value and how can it be that you know if you're adding value then it has to be lasting you
cannot have you cannot disappear the next day. So, so that got me thinking about issues around that and um and at some point I said okay
maybe that is the that is the path to that is the path to or at least to explore right uh and at that time I didn't have much
clue about what a PhD or or or being a a being in academia in the in in the US
would look like I mean to some extent when I first started thinking about the whole thing I was I thought I've seen those consulting reports I think I can right those
[laughter]
so uh right so that was my initial impression when I started looking thinking more about
about the PhD PhD programs uh and um and you where did you get your MBA
I well that was in India before in India okay yeah yeah and and then then I came uh to the US I I went to Carnegie Melon and I did my
PhD and okay super intellectual curiosity sounds like to me I am translating [laughter]
whatever you want to call it I am translating this intellectual curiosity propelled you to go do a PhD right right
and then uh so how how does your academy academic um journey go I mean now you're you are um almost getting at the at the
top of the of the of the profession here being a dean [laughter] and everything how did that journey go about yeah I wouldn't call it the top because
in academia we say that if you know Like if you're an if you are doing administration, somebody's forcing you
to do it. [laughter] It's true.
But I see.
But no, but I like all aspects of of of my of my work. But again coming back to my story I think it's uh um you know
doing doing getting into research um and getting into hands-on into research looking at getting more familiar with
academic research and and and what it entails and the and for some reason the the rigorous the the careful
deliberation deliberative process of doing research that kind of appealed to me. Yeah.
So and and and I kind of stuck to it and partly also also because I like teaching. Okay.
I used to teach in some form right from high school. Okay.
So um so that that kind of um you know that um desire to teach was always always there. So okay.
Yeah. I can identify with that by the way.
I mean I have done a lot of teaching even in um in in uh in corporate right. All management consulting companies have their own schools, you
know, right? Uh like Accenture has a school at St. Charles and and in in in near London, Milton Kees. So we send people
out to 40 hours of school every time they get promoted or they want to be promoted. Wow.
Right. So there is a senior analyst school, there's a manager school, senior manager school, and the partner school and that kind of stuff. So I identify
with what you're saying that you had that that desire to teach right u you know as as part of your journey I guess.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So what what what was your where did you start teaching first when you got got out of your your PhD at I have been at Temple all along.
Oh you been at Temple. You're at [laughter] Temple. So straight from CMU to Temple. Yeah. Very nice. What courses did you teach?
Uh so I um so I've taught different courses but I I started with uh the foundational course on on information
systems which is about I mean it it's a great course because it evolves so much that
every year you have to change your syllabus and if you have a reading from two years ago then people don't like you know are you teaching us old stuff but
yeah so it's it's it's a very exciting course to teach [snorts] um again how technology is changing business and what are some of the
strategic implications of technology you know in a business context so that's the main objectives of the course mostly undergrad or undergrad
I mean I started with undergrad I have taught at all levels by now I started with undergrad uh I taught in
in a master's program I've taught in a in the MBA program in the executive MBA program and we
like we had programs in Tokyo, Singapore, Philadelphia um and Boota. Oh wow.
Oh nice.
So uh the Philly Philly program is is again we are in the process of relaunching. So we admitted our like first cohort in the relaunch program. So
that's that's very exciting. Uh but uh so I have taught in the executive MBA executive MBA programs as well and and
of course the PhD programs. And your favorite is I was just going to ask the question. I mean having taught the whole breath I
guess MBA is probably the young kids or or whatn not I can call them kids I guess. Right.
Right. And then teaching the the the executive part where you know people are coming in from the industry they're a lot senior and older I guess.
Right.
So what is it that you you liked uh which which cohort did you like the most?
I mean I like the executive MBA program the most.
That's not the right answer. [laughter] That's not the right you you like you like to teach DBA. I've never taught the DBA program.
[laughter]
You found the loophole in my sarc.
What is it about that teaching them that you like the most? I mean it's the it's it's more interactive uh because people
come up with like come in with like 10 20 or plus years of experience and
you know they can you know the topics that you're talking on I mean they can really enrich the discussion with a lot
of examples and you know practical real world scenarios. So you may be teaching them the you know the basic or the
frameworks which is which is valuable for them. So oh I didn't think of it but but then they can fill in the gap they're very good at filling in the gaps
and then again so sometimes I learn a lot from right from those interactions but also I think the whole class also also benefits. So,
so it's very I mean I think that's the exciting part is that it's it's very interactive [snorts] uh if you put the right structure on it
and it's it's very enriching for everyone right you know I I picked up on that the fact that you know [clears throat] it is that you provide the framework
I am feeling it already as I think Kevin you were saying the same thing too that now you are thinking looking at everything that you said through the lens of the research oh yeah
I can't accept an answer anymore
[laughter]
you have to question it yeah I have to question it and I have like look it up and then I have to you know not just use what I've always gone right like no it requires more
absolutely right so that is definitely true I think um uh the practitioners like I can talk about myself as a practitioner
I wasn't thinking about let's say upper echelon echelon theory right I mean I never thought about there was no framework in my mind for that but
you intuitively know that obviously the senior leadership influences the culture at the firm mh but this gives you a little bit of a
framework as you as you said. So that's an interesting learning. It's it's interesting because a lot of the academic research that we've read, I
feel like there's a a big like so what, right? And there's still that. And that's what I think this program is
doing pretty well or maybe it's I'm trying to see if you agree with this, but taking the academic research of like,
hey, um, you were talking about your Airbnb thing, you know, Airbnb's impact on crime, right?
Right. you get the you have the findings, but now what do you do with the findings?
And maybe it's because I don't come from an academic background. I care more about the implications of that of that research. Like so what? What does that mean?
Like what how do we action off of that? Like what do we do?
And so I think over time I'm hoping that DBA programs kind of go more and more in that direction and and have them those
influences. I I think it'll be very interesting for general folks because we're aiming this to be for people who are interested in research, interested
in DBA program. It'll be very interesting to talk about some of the you know interesting research that you've done. something that Kevin was
mentioning you mentioned in the car driving over here the relationship between the crime and Airbnb right it's a very
it's a very captivating topic in my view right so tell us about if you can often think of I don't want to put you on the spot but
if you can think of something interesting research that you came about u and it was in counterintuitive what you found
right like while you're thinking I'll tell you there's a paper that I was reading about about Amir's research
you know the linguistic marking um uh the linguistic marking in a language impact the way you think about u genders
apparently right never thought of that I I was really fascinated by that even light of things and then and then it's taken further of
like things about implications of board members right and and actions that boards take of environmental impacts
just because we say I or we don't say I at the beginning of our sentences. Yeah. It's wild stuff. It's totally wild. Yeah.
And then you know he had one of the hypothesis that even just one woman on the board completely changes uh the
environmental strategy that the the company is following.
Just one woman on the board does does that. Yeah.
So there are some of that that things that you know research finds. I find it fascinating. Yeah. Mhm.
Right. So you know that's a great example. Yeah. I mean then you can ask questions like is it coincidental or is there something
fundamental about having one woman on the board which impacts the way others react stuff? Yeah. Right. Very interesting research.
So take us through there's an article not an article there's research you did and it's about the NFL. Right.
Right. And about people on their phones or something something about that.
Yeah. I mean it's how they understand what I mean it's it's interesting that sometimes the most you know most of the questions that you that you research on
come from your day-to-day experience you know okay um so [snorts] one of the things yeah like we we not like we notice that we
have when we have mobile phone everybody is in a state of distraction you're on your phone when you're walking you're on your phone when you are s you know you
know driving sometimes which is I'm sure we Us three have probably had the itch, right, to [laughter] check our phones,
go check my text messages, right? So So we have our phone on all the time and we're distracted. We keep
check checking them or or or you know, we're doing something and we're in a you know meeting and we're checking our our phones or our emails. So um so one of
the things and and this seems very kind of um counterintuitive for advertising because advertising works on attention
and now when you know that people are distracted how do you advertise right?
So you know and because you need their you need to captivate them right for message. Okay.
Right. And um so so that's what we set out to test is that if we can create a distracted environment and test how
people behave on this distracted environment and what is the effectiveness of advertising on on these in in such environments. I think that would that would be a great study. So
that that's that's was the the genesis of of of of that study.
You were sitting on the couch. you're watching Jason Kelsey do the tush push,
[laughter]
you know, and you were on your phone and you missed something and you were like, I got to Yeah. And you and you get an ad and you're wondering why, you know, why are they sending this ad because I may not be even watch be on my phone, you know?
So, so, so that's what we looked at. So, we created an environment where we we asked people to watch an Eagles game. Okay.
And Oh, was it? Yeah.
Yeah. The first quarter, four, second quarter, third quarter, fourth. Do you remember? Um, I think the first quarter, but but not not the not the full game.
Like maybe about 13 minutes in the in that game. Hopefully like beating the Chiefs.
Beating somebody. Yes, somebody. [laughter] But uh [snorts]
yeah, so we uh and then we also gave them a task to do on a mobile device and on on that mobile device, we also
showed them some ads, right? I mean, traditionally you there's
I mean, you know, literature would say that if you're if you're doing multiple things like multitasking, then your um
then your responsiveness to advertising actually decreases.
Decreases. Right. So, you're saying they're watching a show on their phone?
They're doing a task on their phone. We give them a small game to play. Okay.
Right. while a game is on in the background like TV or on the TV there's on on the TV there's a game and you're on your phone okay doing
this this task okay and uh so we asked them questions about whether they are paying attention to the game and we also measured their
performance on that anagram so how many how many they they solved correctly okay um so a couple of things so we found
couple of interesting things so one we found that that being distract that
although you're you're distracted, but whatever is playing on the TV has an impact on your on your responsiveness to
the ads in the sense if you're if you're watching your ads on the mobile phone and they are con they are related to
something that's going on the TV. So it you're more likely to to click on on those ads and that's intuitive that that that is to some extent
intuitive but also not very uh like like it it wasn't shown in in prior work
before like what is this cross cross device uh effect [snorts] but the other interesting effect was that
I mean the more distracted you are uh like the more you're you're watching the the TV.
Mhm.
Uh the less is the effectiveness of your ad or uh the you know you're less likely
to to to click on on the ad. Okay. But uh but in in situations where you are more focused on on on the device and
you're you're less distracted, you're um you know you're more likely to to click on the ad which is which again goes counter to some of the multitasking
literature which basically says that if you are if you're if you're distracted, if you're focusing on a different task, then you don't pay attention to advertising.
Oh, okay. But here we find that yes, if you're But if you add a third task to the mix.
Oh wow, you guys are really making it complicated. [laughter] Yeah. So what happens if you add a third task?
So if you add a third task to the mix like like again watching a TV, you're like like the ad is the is a distraction but then you have the task and you another task going on out there.
Then you actually pay more attention then in multitasking actually helps. Oh really? Right.
Okay. That is a counterintuitive part, right? So multitasking actually makes you pay more attention to to the ads. Wow. Would have never thought that.
Yeah. So that that was that was very counter to counter. [snorts] What did your study go into the reasons of why or is it just
or just like this was what we observed and I mean I mean theoretically it's you know it's the there's a concept called
atomicity which is based on the there's a literature on dual task interference like if you're doing multiple tasks so
how does you know how and there's a lot of work on like in the area of computer security which is like if you are if
you're working uh on your computer and then you get a popup a security alert, how likely are you to pay attention to
to that to that alert? So um uh so again and again it's the the the conceptity is
that you treat different tasks as as a block, right? So in this case, if you have if you add one more task to the miss, then you're treating the primary
task as and the interrupt as one block and you pay attention to them together.
Okay. So there's some interplay going on there. Right. Right. [laughter] Right. Okay. Wow. Very interesting. Very interesting.
Do you think that these social media companies know about this already?
Right. I'm sure they that's a good question. and algorithmically kind of like you know you you publish this and you know Mark Zuckerberg is like
[laughter]
you're behind right I mean to some extent we're seeing uh some
you know like applications uh already you have you know like companies are
trying to figure out like say in location based advertising like you where like if you are in a in a stadium
then obviously you're more likely to watch a game. So then the advertising that they can serve is on the on the mobile device is likely to be congruent with with with the game.
Okay.
So but you're almost saying it's a like if you were a social media company, you almost would want to come up with distraction strategies,
right? Is that a fair statement of that work?
Like so if you know someone's at a game, right? Like maybe the ad maybe the ad is is I don't know like something related
but if they can find one other one other method like maybe one ad is an intentional distraction and then the next one you see right
is something that you'll you'll remember. So those ad slots will have different values or Right. And it also depends on what's what's going on. Like we also looked at
the different types of the what's going on on the screen. Like it's is it a is it a actual play going on? Is it a
replay or is it something in between like like a commentary?
Well, in football there's a lot of downtime, right? There is a lot of down time.
So did you look into that and like what happened like during huddles, you know, versus like when they're actually at the line of scrimmage? because I feel like that's when I look at my phone.
Yeah.
Right. Right. Right. It creates kind of kind of a a little bit of a space there for you know I think that's why like football is the perfect American or just Yeah. the
perfect game for TV now because we're distracted people. Right. They really are.
Right. And then and even like so like companies actively try to predict what what what you're doing and there's there's ways you can predict who is more
likely to be watching a particular show on TV. So then if they're doing something on the mobile device, you can predict, oh, they may also be watching a
TV, so let me, you know, now I know they're on the device. Let me serve them a particular type of an ad.
Maybe we don't even need prediction anymore, right? If you're if you're Google, you've got Google, you know, you have YouTube TV, right? And then you're
also owning all a lot of the data flow like on on your phone.
So maybe it's simply like, hey, Saquon Barkley's got the ball. He's about to score. Yeah.
Like the [laughter] light, you know, seriously. and then serve up the ad like the ad is getting ready to be ser relentlessly focused on application.
[laughter]
Oh, I love it.
The research is fine, but what do I do with it? How do I put it into into ways of making more money? More money. Yeah, that's right.
Yeah. No, and and that and again going back to the DBA program, that's the beauty of the program is we want the
results. Whatever studies you do, there has to be and we I mean we broadly like to think of research as four steps. uh
like problem identification and uh the theory, the data and analysis and finally the actual application
and we are in academia or in typical business schools we're good at the middle two things you know right
the theory and the and the analysis but what the DBA program brings in is the two book ends you know the
right right that's a very nice problem identification and the application so so if we And uh so second so that's
where like to your earlier question about the DBA like being the PhD light you know and that's why I don't think in that way I think in it's it's very
complimentary to what we do in in business school research and kind of completes
yeah no I totally get it no seriously [clears throat] I mean in the sense that it has such a different applicability that you really can you you comparing
apples to oranges almost right in my you uh but I'm so glad to know that the the theoretical rigor
that we have in PhD is the same as in in DB as well.
It's just that you know the motivation is different the applicability is a little bit different. So I totally get it. It's definitely my conclusion at least I am including it is not PhD.
We're one we're one semester in like let's [laughter] so one of the interesting things we also do in the DBA program and we we've been doing that for a while but we're kind of
trying to do more of it and in a more intense manner is to increase the interaction between the PhD and the DBA students. M
so like in your second year you'll see that in a lot of the residencies and then even on the Saturday uh sorry the receptions and even the Saturday
residencies you have some PhD students will come in and present their work and they'll sit there for the entire time and listen to your work and we'll try to
make a match with if there's somebody working on the similar topic. So the idea is that if people can from different programs can collaborate that that that'll be great as well.
And I saw that in action. I think in my last residency there were there were a bunch of PhD students.
I think there they were um uh they they had come all the way from China or something. Mhm.
Right. So and they were do the P that's why I was I bumped into them.
We had some good I think we were at the table. We had we had good conversations about like wasn't it immigration or uh Yes. Um yeah I don't remember the
findings but it was like v like the F1 visas right obviously a hot topic H1 H1B H1B visas visa yeah
yeah so those PhD students were there so I asked them as to which year are you they said I'm fourth year I'm like that how's that possible DBA is supposed to be done in three no
I'm a PhD student so I totally get what you're saying you know something topical right like I don't know the details because it's kind of fresh and I haven't looked into it
but I've I'm saying that there's um like loan like getting loans federal loans for certain programs now are getting cut.
Mhm.
Right. Like I'm sure you're up to date a little bit on that research you mean?
Yeah. Like isn't it like accounting like you can't get federal funding for certain programs I think? Yeah. There's something going on there.
I I'm not very familiar with it. It's like what Harvard is fighting with the current administration. You got that going on too.
That the research funds have been cut out for a lot of research. So as yeah that's a different problem with the how it's more of the grants and the
overheads that that that come with the grants but no I'm I mean I'm not very familiar with the
I I guess the question is is it seems like and maybe it's not true but it seems like our political climate is faster than ever
and changes happen. How do you handle that as a dean? That has to be one of that has to be hard, right?
Um Yeah, I mean yes and no. I mean to some extent um
I mean we have to ask the right questions like you know I mean say around things around student
debt and you know what um like why is it high and what can we
do about it and again we can even look at the at the micro level at the programs that that schools offer but I
think that's that is like not part of the dayto- today conversation but that's like more of a
strategic initiative for for for the school.
So yeah so for most part it's especially I mean in in in in some states there's been more oversight on schools even on
on research but I think I haven't seen much uh in at least in Pennsylvania.
Okay. So those conversations are just kind of like strategic every every year or so. Maybe you see where where the current wins are going and and try to
make decisions. But I guess I guess yeah, you have to be fluid. Oh fluid.
I mean I think higher ed in in general is is a very exciting industry.
[laughter]
Yeah, it is.
And uh it's it's like you said it's I think it's exciting more than ever and now. Right.
I mean we but we frequently have conversations about what is the future of work? What are we training our students for
and is there any way we can train them better? And I mean I think we moved past conversations like uh should we be using Gen AI? I mean it's a no-brainer.
We've gone [laughter] like what 40 50 minutes and this is the first first AI then right? That's amazing.
That is amazing. That is amazing. But that's a isn't that I I I would think it's an 800 lb gorilla in the room. Yeah.
That that acade academy is not sunil I have to say this that academy is not talking about I mean I don't know if there's clarity
as to how the students should be using it and how the academy should be using it as well. Right. So throw some light on that please.
Yeah. No I mean there are definitely discussions and uh but I think at this point everybody's in a state of learning
and the positions are evolving. So that's why I said we are moved away from should they be use should the students
be using it to like how should the students be using it correct?
So I think that's that that's the important part it's it's a technology which adds tremendous value. So um so I
mean again it's it's it's definitely should be part of you know part of our our tool set and and also it's it's
something that you know you can only regulate something that you can control you know [laughter] you cannot I mean no matter what rules
or policies you have if you have no way of controlling it then you're doing a disservice both to the school and the students
because you Some people will follow, some will not follow. So, it's kind of not not fair. Um, what's your, you know, you you talked about being around like the.com boom?
Are there similarities that you've seen like was your NBA around that time as well, the dot? Yeah, a little before that. Yeah.
So, have you seen like academic similarities? Because you know, in class we've talked about um right Wikipedia at one point, right?
you don't want to bring up Wikipedia when you like cite anything. And now like if you Wikipedia is actually not the worst source in the world, right? Or you can only have like one one
internet source, right? And the rest had to be from the library. So I'm just curious if there's any parallels that you're seeing in the academic world.
I mean, not so much in the academic world, but like in the I think it's more so in the business. I I sometimes think like you know like with the com I mean
people just overinvested and that's basic human nature. So I I always wonder like how much is the degree what's the degree of overinvestment
that we're seeing in um in AI and what's the you know what's the where's the value coming from
or where is it is is it going to going to come from because I mean AI is and I like AI is like one of the most misused
words because it's mean it's such a broad term which means so many different things so many different technologies ies and again the
implications of each of those technologies could be could be completely different. So um I think most people hear AI and they
just think Chad GPT or they think I mean mostly LLMs is what we dealing with. I think the whole AI industry is focus at least that's where the investment seems to be going.
It's all in in LLM.
Maybe a little bit in machine learning which I in my view is what I call AI.
Machine learning is AI. LLM I'm not too sure. I mean, it's it's AI, which it's it's like really guessing the next best
word that'll come after another word, right? Yeah. I don't know. Are we in a bubble?
Like, I I think we are. And you know, how much does Chad GPT or whoever else have to charge to get their money back?
And is that sustainable? That's what's in the news right now. For sure.
And it's like I mean it's I mean AI it's the the technology itself works on on
data on information. And that's one of the first things I teach in my information class is that it's never about the technology. It's always about
the information, right?
What because that's what business runs on, right? Information now technology comes and goes. Technology has changed. So,
[snorts]
um, and now that information is accessible from everywhere, right? And is that maybe one of the changes?
you have you know big companies big data and now you know the compute power to handle all that which so maybe the data
has always been there just hasn't been centralized enough right but again like yeah so to get that information so there needs to be I mean
it's like you have a tool which runs on information but it's not getting the right information because the information
engineering that the company has done like even if you have a like an enterprise system But then you need a
lot of the the unstructured data to be able to fully leverage the the AI
AI models and even the even additional data that gets that gets generated in the process of like like in a call
center you have the all the voice data that's get generated or or or in a if you're monitor if you're doing video monitoring you you know all of that data
gets generated so so I mean the more data you give it the more richer you know the the experience was
better the the the more the AI would would be in prediction but but most companies don't have that infrastructure to
to build in those huge data streams into to feed them to to AI and um
so until I think until that happens and then also what is the AI going to look
like you have like you had 30 40 50 years ago I mean or 40 34 years ago you had the enterprise systems and before that you had those islands of
information everybody doing their own thing right so I think in AI we are at that stage we are where everybody's doing their own thing but I think the real value and
scalability will come when we can integrate integrated all the agents talk to each other all the data flows seamlessly I think that's
that would be the ideal state that'll be really a great state but coming bringing it a little bit closer home uh how are you expecting the the current
cohort of uh students to use AI especially in the DBA programs. Mhm.
What are we supposed what is allowed and what's not allowed?
Well, you want me to tell Oh, well, yeah, maybe I should listen before I tell you what I do. [laughter]
[gasps]
Yeah. I think we have a we have an AI policy um which I think basically boils down I may be missing on some other
details is like you can you have to disclose what you're doing with with the AI and also there are some caveats that you
know you may be using AI but you it's it's your work at the end of the day so you have to make sure that
it's it's accurate because at least the way the technologies are right now I mean they're prone to hallucination they give you wrong references. So you
don't want something going out in the world which has your name on it and you know right it's all fake. You don't want that for sure.
Right. Right. Right. So uh so I think that's where we are at this point but like like I said it's there's there's no
no effective or very effective ways of policing this stuff or right really finding out. So what we are trying to put together hopefully in the
spring we should be able to do that is to have a workshop where we can collate at least some of the best practices of
of using AI and introduce a few case studies on what are the real harms like showing work with AI which is you know
not appropriate and giving some examples of what you know what is right what is not so just to give students a firsthand
in information on you know what's the best way to use it um and and it's not only a chat GPT I mean there's so much
potential for these AI tools to be used in other aspects of research like even like data collection like you can do an
AB test with video image voice and you can easily manipulate and create the the
treatment and the controls using AI AI technologies so we hopefully try to bring some of those technologies as as well as as part of the workshop. In
qualitative research, you have new tools kind or existing tools into building AI components. So, which makes qualitative
research also, you know, more uh gives you more more tools to do do qualitative research. So, again, some of those
things I mean, yeah, they're in the pipeline. Huh.
Right. I'm all for using AI in the right way. I think it's it's the future. It's just that we have to see what's best. we can put some guard
rails and around it so that people use it correctly. Yeah, it's interesting in in one of our earlier courses it was the
amount of redacted journal articles and academic papers is like exponential and and from and it correlates to the
emergence of AI that's wild to me and and something that was interesting is you know the one of the ways I use AI is to find articles
right and you know and then all of a sudden like Gemini wants to tell me like everything about it I'm like no no no I just wanted to find the articles and I want to do the work.
But what's fascinating is I've noticed that those halluc hall hallucinations are real and some of them are still using redacted redacted uh papers.
Oh wow.
So, you know, students could get in trouble all of a sudden, you know, they're citing it. This is from journal ABC, right?
You know, and then you know, professor looks it up and goes, "That's not in there." Like, where did you actually get this from? Like, yeah, that's that's fake news. Circling back to that.
For sure.
Interesting. Very interesting. You know the holy grail I think summarizing journal articles for example is that a is that a good
practice or I just want to throw a few use cases fire like rapid fire yes or no is this okay [laughter] it
I mean summarizing it a journal article to say should I even be reading this whole thing tell me is it is it germanine to
to the topic that I'm trying to discuss or or research right I don't want to find find that after reading 40 pages Yeah. Right.
Right. I mean, I do it. I'm sure you do it.
Right. Yeah. I think for that, you know, I'll, you know, keep waiting for the workshop, [laughter] but
you don't want to go on on mic on that one.
Yeah. No, like Yeah. No, I mean, it's just that I wouldn't I mean I it doesn't seem right in the
sense. It might give you some I mean for summarizing I think it I mean it like I have never used it for summarizing but
like especially journal articles but um I'm not sure how it would frame the the references and whether you know how
accurately it would it'll borrow ref or it will site those references because that's that's been the main problem. I mean summarizing text it's generally
pretty good but when it's text linked with a lot of references how are you know how is it going to
deal with all that yeah I think I like I tell my students like for most of the papers you can just read the abstract
it's the summary true summary true yeah you don't have to throw it in anything just read the abstract just print the first page and you're good to go
type it in chbbrt and then just read the abstract [laughter] Sounds like um research is at an
inflection point. So this fascinating world it has definitely made it easier for sure you know I mean I don't know if I shared this with you Sel my wife is a
PhD from tempo right and she looks at me when I'm doing this and she's of course graduated 94 right so she's like a super senior PhD and
she's like you know you have no idea in when I was doing my PhD in 94 in temple I had to go to the library Mhm.
photocopy all that stuff, bring it back, and now you guys can find research articles in in a second.
We just lost an entire demographic of listeners. [laughter] We did. Yeah. Library.
Library. I know. They just don't go to library. No.
No. But actually that's that's that's interesting like like when temple built built some of its spaces like
when I first came here it was we had just built a tech center and now a few years
ago we built a library and you would think that like even a tech center like who needs a tech center
instead all laptops and you know why would you but surprisingly you would see that now a lot of these physical spaces have
become become more like social spaces where people still go. Oh, I mean you can see our library there's like wa you know yeah lot lot of lot of students
there are you can go to tech center there's a lot of students there and and they have cur cured some meetings rooms some social spaces where you know just
students can go and you know they're working but at least they can work in a group and right right I think it is that it's the Starbucks that that created the third
third place right your home your office and the third place concept of library close to me and we take our our son in there and and it has like a
jungle gym and all this but you know and then books and stuff and and learning around it. So it's just defining it differently.
All right. We haven't been very structured but we we're coming to the end.
Yes. [laughter] And I don't even think I don't know if you've looked at these. We're going to do we're going to call it the final residency. Right. This is our outro.
Okay. [laughter] And it's good you don't know these questions. It's going to be five one-word answers. Okay. And we'll end on that.
Beautiful. Yeah. So, we'll start I'll we'll start here. I'll start with my answer. We'll go around and we'll go to the next one. Okay.
All right. Most evil social media platform. Facebook. Oh, Facebook.
I'll go Facebook. Tik Tok.
Tik Tok. Okay. Pizza. Pineapple. Yes or no? No. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Absolutely no. Right.
All right. This is a tricky one. It takes some thinking. something in your field that you're willing like a hill on in your field that you're willing to die on.
Oh, that is a tough one. I haven't thought about this one either. That is a tough one.
So, anyone jump in when they think of one? I mean, impact.
I mean I am all for doing relevant you know relevant research uh current
relevant research which has which which has an impact and no matter where it comes from like again
I mean like even in school like whether it's um from a PhD program a DBA program even from from a faculty perspective is
it a tenure track non-tenure faculty I mean if you're doing good applied research I think that's should be like
rewarded and valued you know I would I I would say something ges into it in my mind I think
multiplier effect whatever I want to do I really want to have it it should have a multiplier effect right like when I quit my corporate job
5 years back and my wife is asking me what are you going to do well I can go and volunteer in a soup kitchen I will feed somebody but does it does it
have a multiplier effect right so I'm like I want to coach and mentor your small startups because if the startup is successful, it changes
the person's life and his family's life. It has a multiplier effect. Mhm.
Right. One hour [clears throat] of my you know time can can give so much more output
for the person that I'm mentoring. So I think you're saying the same exact thing. Similar thing I think in terms of impact, right? We want to make an impact.
I'm willing to die that it's so important to continually learn.
And obviously that's what we're here doing. But you know the moment you stop thinking is the moment you you stop being creative and the moment you you
maybe like don't like your desk job anymore, right? So that's that's my go-to learning. These are good. That one was a good one.
That was a good All right, two more. Um one line of advice for doctoral students and Ashweeni for you and I prospective doctoral students.
I think we should start with expert [laughter] first. One line of one line of advice. some advice if you can sum it up in one line. Tough job.
Do what you like doing. It's uh like I mean especially I mean a lot that's my line but I can expand on it as [laughter] well.
Yeah, please.
Um I mean it's especially with the doctoral program it's um you know it's very intense. It it has it can have
tremendous ups and downs like once one hand you feel very euphoric uh for no reason actually sometimes and
for other times you feel down for no reason you know because uh research is so unpredictable so
so you know do it only if you like if you you know do what you like to do do what you like to do yeah
I'm going to go with take the plunge I was I was skeptical and maybe I shouldn't I should be skeptical before I submit my my money.
[laughter]
But take the plunge, right? Like um I there's a lot of uh like what is it when you feel like you don't fit in? What's the the phrase imposter syndrome?
Totally like had that the first the first residency. [laughter] But then all of a sudden you start realizing like you're here for this certain reason. Everyone else around you
is doing it. So I would say take the plunge like don't be afraid. Mhm.
So I I would say stay with it, right? Just stay with it.
Yeah. It get it gets tough. It gets uh you ask questions as to why are you doing it? This is the best thing I can do. Is this the best use of my time? Uh
because we all have finite time on this planet or um so stay with it. So stick with it. Mhm.
All right. And then I I gave an audible here. Back to the NFL reference. Philly cheese steak. Whiz or no whiz? Definitely whiz.
Definitely whiz. I've never had it with Whiz.
You don't have No, I've only had one true Philly cheese steak. [laughter] Okay. Yeah, Sil, it's been an honor. Thank you for being on the show.
Yeah. No, my pleasure. I mean, it's amazing you guys are doing it and I'll look forward to more discussions.
More discussions definitely, but also seeing more episodes of your podcast. Good luck with this.
Oh, thank you. Thanks for being number one.
I have to add, it's my honor. Yeah, Kevin Wood of Thank you very much, Anil.
Totally appreciate it for starting us off.
Remember, you started this this fire here.
That's right. [laughter] You will see it going wild in a short while.
Yeah, that's right. I like the multiplier effect. Let's see. Let's hope for the multiplier effect. Let's hope for the multiplier effect.
[laughter]
Great job. And Kevin, we have to thank you. Kevin is the mastermind. By the way, I would not be doing this if it it wasn't for Kevin.
He's the one who started the idea,
[laughter]
right? You need you need the partnership so that you keep keep people, you know, motivated, right? Keep them honest.
Yeah. So hopefully we provide value to to not only you know the academic world but let's let's do what we can and provide value to everybody.
And that wraps up episode number one. Stay tuned for the next one.
