cohort in progress · episode 03 · 18 May 2026 · 1 hr 25 min
Hatching dragon eggs: Ajay Raju on AI, Philadelphia and the Germination Project
About this episode
Ajay Raju arrived in Northeast Philadelphia in 1983 and became one of the city’s most prominent civic leaders. He talks about the immigrant experience that shaped him, why so much of Philadelphia’s young talent ends up uprooted to other cities, and the Germination Project, his 50-year bet on the city’s next generation of leaders.
Then AI, which Ajay sees as a bigger shift than the moves from industrial to internet or from internet to big data: those were mini quakes by comparison. What it means for small business, for creativity, for long-form conversation, and why, in his words, the Germination Project is in the business of hatching dragon eggs.
Key moments
- Arriving in Northeast Philadelphia in 1983
- The Germination Project
- A 50-year bet on keeping talent in the city
- AI, and why the earlier shifts were mini quakes
- Does AI help or hurt small business?
- The art of long-form conversation
- Hatching dragon eggs
Full transcript
auto-generated from the recording and lightly corrected for names · select a time to play from there
And this is cohort in progress episode three. I think it's three. Yes. We've had some amazing episodes before.
So if you want to learn about enshittification, go check out the Lynne Andersson one. Yes. But today we've got a really nice guest in Ajay. I'm Kevin Burgess. I do doctoral
studies. Right now I'm learning about AI and AI awareness and small business. And I'm Ashwini Bhaskar. I'm doing my doctoral studies around
entrepreneurship. And today we have a wonderful guest in Ajay Raju who is uh also a Temple graduate and uh does a lot of work around community. Uh we are
looking forward to talking to him about AI about the stuff that he does around the community in Philadelphia. So let's get started. Ajay, what's your go-to
podcast? I don't really have a podcast podcast that I listen to but I do like acquired. Someone turned me on to a quiet podcast
about companies and they do a great job talking about yeah the formation the history much more of a richer conversation about companies and where
they are the founders and and the industry and the macro picture of the sector itself. I think they're wonderful. Yeah. The it's I think it's a
must for any business student, any person in the business world acquired podcast. Yeah. What's what's the format? How do they
run? Just two two guys Silicon Valley just talking about it. But the amount of research that they do,
okay, on the companies um and their ability to tell stories in such vivid fashion that draws you in, you know, it doesn't seem
academic at all. it just is much more of a you know that's how documentaries have become back in the 80s I mean documentaries were forced on you know it
was like eating kale uh but today documentaries are like eating kale which is much more tasty and you know the chefs are creative and documentaries are
even more enriching than even movies but acquired is imagine having a great conversation or learning at business school at
Wharton or temple or uh Harvard but every second of it you're engaged I'm a big fan. They're not a guest driven show. It's
just too Well, they're guest driven. No, no, they are. They They sometimes bring people in occasionally. Usually, it's just the two
guys talking. Sometimes they bring in Jen Sen Wang or people like that. It's really at the high high level. Yeah. So, Kevin, will it be fair to to maybe
begin with Ajay? Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah, absolutely. Uh well, uh I came to the country in
1983. Um, I was Mowgli dropped in a jungle of Irish and Polish immigrants in Northeast Philadelphia. I was probably the only um
ink spot on a blank page. Uh, it's important because my immigrant experience probably shapes who I am and everything, all the work that we do and
the businesses and everything else is sort of tied to that. You know, that was probably a an important moment in in our lives, my family and myself. Northeast
Philly, unlike any other neighborhood in 1983 where I was, was just like Leave it to Beaver. If you, those who were older, will remember the show. It was what you
would consider to be an ideal America. The front doors were always open. The adults would mentor young people. You had, you know, gangs, not in a bad
sense, but bunch of friends hanging out, groups walking together. We would call ourselves various names from the uh that book Outsiders. So it was really we
thought we were a gang but wholesome kids. It was a wholesome neighborhood. Um and it was monolithic. So it was not 32 seagulls fighting for French fry. It
was much more of a every parent is a mentor. Right. So I grew up um early years in that marinating in that warmth of a community.
Right. So my perception of what America was is is different than probably 90% of other immigrants maybe. I don't know. But that shaped how I view America, the
opportunities, maybe even my uh ideology perhaps and who I am. Um and also sense of responsibility. I know that I was carried. Um
I I think I was I've always walked on the sunny side of the street, you know. So part of the reason why I know that um uh many of the things that I enjoy come
from the fact that even on rainy days people run to my side with umbrellas. So I've been pretty lucky. It's been a very lucky um journey in America.
You really embody the whole like takes a village to raise a child, right? I it certainly was. I mean I you know we had a neighbor that taught my brother
how to ride a bike. He was also uh would always take me to Carl Dockerty because he was on his way to work. Poor guy always was late because I would still be
fussing with my hair while I would hear one honk, two honk. Yet when I would get in the car, there was no ammunition. There was no like yelling. It was just
I mean, it's still looking good. You can buy it at Target. Um but but it's uh uh but yeah I I grew up I I grew up the right way I think with great
mentors great community sense of optimism being told um you know positive uh things whether it was deserved or earned or not didn't matter you know I
actually started believing it at some point right there something similar experience as well I mean I'm an immigrant as well
I came in the country in 99 uh and unlike most of the the I think people who come from India. I didn't come studying here. I came working for
Price Waterhouse Coopers. Um and I had something similar experience really. It was great. What was yours?
Well, I mean I mean my experience with everybody was so helpful. I started my my Price Waterhouse Cooper uh you know job here right here in in Philadelphia.
And um one of the things my wife also actually went to Temple but she went to Temple 86 1986 right? So she probably kind of grew up in the kind of community
that you're talking about, right? Uh but I had a wonderful wonderful experience. Uh after about a six months in in PWC, I
quit and and and joined a startup. In those days, startups are not as as um ubiquitous if you will. But um and then I kind of took an exit five years down
the road like the true American dream if you will and then join you know Accenture and IBM and so on and so forth. I had a great great immigrant
experience and I I do feel I agree with you OJ. I feel that sense of responsibility and sense of giving back to the community
and that's what I have been doing for the last 5 years right to give back to the community that you live in.
I I definitely think the mindset of America pre 911 right uh pre- pandemic was different. Yeah. And especially those of us who are older
remember a different America. um may not have been a fair America, may not be, you know, maybe they're rose tinted glasses from, you know, steeped in
nostalgia, whatever they may be, but um you know, I have sometimes have to be careful because my experience is not everybody's experience,
right? Um but uh I have to be truthful that my experience was but there is a pressure at this point to sort of uh spin your memory to through the lens of
the aperture of everybody else's. Um I'm not saying that everybody had the same experience. We just happened to be very lucky. And
I think I had a really similar experience. I'm I'm a white guy and born and raised in America. I have so many similar No, I'm just kidding. way
different experience than than you like I didn't have from a young age those weren't like the morals surrounding me right like rosecolor glasses were I
think my upbringing a little bit more and so now as I get older I start realizing the importance of giving giving back I don't think that
importance was kind of there from the start right and and I don't know if that's a place from just pure luxury is probably what it is or or
privilege I don't know I mean I think I think if you look that I don't know the stats. You guys are the um research experts, but if you had to
if I had to make a guess, Yeah. say, "Name a country that is most charitable, that volunteers more, that sends its
young men and women uh into danger, you know, not just to protect our obviously our economic interests and our geopolitical uh
reasons, but also in some cases to, you know, to help those in need, whether it's through our USAD dollars or whatever the reasons are. I would
venture both from a government standpoint as well as the little guy writing a check that they probably can't afford, but that person that volunteers.
We have a rich history of locals volunteering that I don't find in a lot of countries. I think I I think we are tough on ourselves as we should be.
We're not perfect, but as a society, it's tough to find. And I, you know, come from another great country born and raised uh uh until 13 in India that is
also a great civilization and great culture. But so I'm blessed with two unique cultures. But but America is unique in that sense. And I I I know
that there is so much tension about where we are today and there's so much anxiety about do we lose that spirit and and
we're so polarized now. And the lens today, the way we look at ourselves and our country and what we mean to the world and what we mean to each other
was certainly not the world that uh I grew up in. Uh, and it had nothing to do with being Indian, being an immigrant, uh, being in Northeast Philadelphia
versus Center City. I think it was just a time where um, we were less judgmental, less um, convinced that we are bad um, you know, and more convinced
that we're not perfect, but we're in pursuit of goodness. Uh, and I think as a country more people probably believed in the ideals of what America stands
for. I think we're less so in that sense than we were. What do you think the reason is? Cuz I have a lot of things that go through my
head, right? And and I think the richness of information would be what comes to mind. Sure. Like as I've gotten like as a kid, you know, my parents would read the
newspaper, you you see like a new OJ Simpson on the news. Like that was like the big thing, right? when I was in like high school or something. And now, and
we've talked about this on multiple shows, but I do think that the more information you get, the more unsure you are of your climate
and the world around you or what do what do you think has driven that change in our society? I've written about this. Um,
a lot of it I think in terms of young people. When I came, it was 13. In 1983, the most uh controversial show in terms
of having ideological fights and all those things was Dallas, you know, JR. And that would be the most. And you still had to wait a week before the next
episode would come. There was no binging. You watched with family. It wasn't personalized viewing. If you went to
Blockbuster, you went with family. You couldn't just get any content. you there was time constraint on that at the shop. So you had
but you also had natural friction points where parents were involved uh FCC and others were geared more towards you a few and it was much more family
oriented. So it gave you grace time as a young person to have a sense of optimism before pessimism killed it. Right? So you could at least develop that
developmental grace whether it's good or bad. you today, you know, any kid with an iPhone can watch pornographic material which is available on your
phone. Uh to binge watch, HBO, sort of these shows that there are platforms like Succession, Game of Thrones, highly complicated where there are no good and
bad, but instead complicated sets. You had West Wing where even though the politicians were not great, you had expectation that they were generally
good that just were morally maybe flawed here or there, right? As opposed to the um um what's that show? It's uh Kevin Spy, the um Oh, yay. House of Cards.
The House of Cards where every character is bad and anybody who is not bad is a sucker waiting to be fooled. So the mindset of the optimism world which was
only what we were fed uh and we had time to sort of develop a sense of optimism, sense of wonder, not know too much to exactly to your point.
Now we see behind every curtain. Yeah. We see all the Machavelian aspects. So it's hard to trust people anymore because of that because we've been
mentally conditioned to now be a bit more skeptical. Yeah. You were talking about it like growing up and I think that's the to me
the what we need to be cautious about like as our children formative years. Yeah. It's like you're getting formative years of not being bored. I think
Yeah. But you know there's pluses to that too. If you have a young kid, 10-year-old kid and understands the Mchavelian natures of the succession
family, right? And you see how every character has good and bad. Well, that trains you to a world where business is not black and white. So you
develop those things. The question really is Jensen Wong was asked this question recently about would you if you were to relive your 20s would you relive
them when in the 1980s when he was 20 or now? And he picked 1980s because he said there were those were happier times, simpler times,
happier and simpler times because if he what he said is if he knows knew knows now how hard it would be to create Nvidia, how hard it would be to
you know fail. Uh he would have never tried. He built Nvidia because he didn't know how difficult it was going to be that he would fail. Like if he had seen
behind the curtains, he would have never tried in the first place. So that sense of optimism that gets snuffed out by too much knowledge is probably what um so I
think you're spot on when you say we have we know too much Ignorance ignorance is bliss. Yeah. You know it strikes me that there's one common thread between the three of us
Temple University. Yeah. Can we So what did you do at uh Ajay? What what uh uh what brought you into Temple
University? There was only one school I applied to. Okay. It was temple because you know I was an immigrant son as you know um
Indian culture the oldest son you're responsible for the family and and so my parents were here there was no other thought I would only apply to temple
I thought back then you couldn't apply to pen because we my parents couldn't afford it didn't realize there was scholarship actually but uh I best
decision I went to temple um uh as an under year was that a so 19 92 2 is when I graduated undergrad. 96 I graduated law school. So I'm a dual
Temple degree. Oh, great. Undergrad and law school. Um, you know, I'm um I'm a big believer in Temple and the education that Temple
provides. Even beyond the education, Temple Hospital is the de facto public hospital in a in a we don't have government hospitals in Philadelphia,
but Temple does the heavy lifting of providing serving as a government hospital essentially. Uh so it is uh it was it was created uh
for the kinds of families that I grew up with. It was created for the for those who are you know working but then come back and so it it has a certain
zeitgeist that I didn't know that connected with me as a kid but but I think it was an ideal school for me to go to.
Super. Yeah. Super. I'm glad that we all got the common red. Yes. Did you guys also go undergrad all of it
to Temple or No, I know your wife is a Temple. Yes, she's temple master's and master and PhD in PhD and she did work at the temple hospital. She's a pharmacist, right? So
she actually did I've heard so many stories about that really. She used to work there and she'll be like, you know, all gunshot wound and all kind of people
will show up, right? And serving is serving also it's in the heart of North Philadelphia, the main campus and um it it has always been an anchor institution
not just um at the academic level and the sort of business level and others but also for the community community you know it is anchored steeped in the
community right and I and I didn't good friend John Fry now is uh yes the president he's the guy overseeing it and I was going through your your
background tell us a little bit about what you ended up doing after and I know you you you you have a couple of founder you sit in a bunch of boards and you're
doing something interesting tell us a little bit about that Ajay well I mean I have a I'm a lawyer by training entrepreneur by choice um but
um I practice law starting in 1996 at various large law firms. Um typical story, became a partner. Um got into firm management and leadership and um so
that was part of my one side of the world. Um but around um I would say 20 2008 or so um I created also a
consulting platform while I was a lawyer leading a firm and then very quickly started making investments and that eventually became a private equity and a
venture side. You wonder why would a lawyer want to do all of those things? It really started because of clients. You know, we we uh we quickly realized
it earlier on that um there is a difference between a lawyer and counsel. Lawyer is technically sound. They provide a specific estate law or
litigation or and they're like podiatrist or cardiologist etc. But then if you have a health problem sometimes you don't call
a doctor, you call somebody you trust with with your with your health. Could be a mom. It could be a neighbor. It could be a CEO of a health system saying
who do I go to? Andad GPT. Now, now Chad GPT or or or Claude, but that becomes your counselor, truster adviser, but I would call AC
Cowan riding the white bronco. If you're OJ Simpson in the back, who do you call? And the emergency or good things. And uh eventually when you become that advisor
as a counselor as opposed to a lawyer, you quickly realize problems don't or opportunities don't come in as a legal opportunity or problem. They come in as
an opportunity. It's a marketing opportunity. It could be a PR crisis. It could be a litigation issue. It could be a purchase issue. It could be a lobbying
issue. It could be connection issue. Sure. So while we were doing this informally little by little we realized the people that we're working with
whether it's consulting whether it was uh capital raising somebody who was really good at it I would then support and then that slowly
became our platform where I was the common element among all of us. So today we have two and five capital. So one line of our businesses are fee uh equity
and then there are fee for services businesses. So from movie production to consulting to embedded executives to private equity. Um and we used to be
venture but there are 18 companies in the biotech space that are housed in our uh private equity structure. We have a still a law practice uh um that manages
about 35 million in legal spend for both traditional clients where I don't have an ownership and companies in which I either have ownership or one of our
venture or private equity has an ownership. So it has organically grown. Um I'm I'm an expert on none of those services
anymore. Um but I am the common link. But in each of those platforms, I'm not saying this out of um bias. But I think you can
objectively say the people who run each of those platforms are the best uh in that on that field in that field, you know, not just locally but nationally or
globally. And that's been that's been uh what we've been doing on the business side. Wonderful. which evolved organically
slowly but now has become you know something substantial. You say it's germinated. It has germinated hasn't it?
Should we talk about that? The germination project. Germination project is not a business. It's not a business but um uh at 2014 we
launched a couple of things. You know Larry Platt and I created the Philadelphia citizen and at the same time we also announced another
initiative called the germination project. um germination project which is sort of a baby of mine. Um it it was a
recognition that Philadelphia has been going through an 80-year blight. Uh if you look at Philadelphia in our history, the code of conduct for
the modern world was written here, the constitution and right and and then you look at public works, we were the lead. The rest of the
country looked at our model for absolutely public works any parks everything we were it and then you look at industrial
revolution we were the lead manufacturing and others and then post-industrial malaise hit us like other cities like Baltimore and
Detroit and others so Philadelphia has been gradually you know we we're much better than many great cities but if you look at child poverty if you look at you
know many of our neighbors who don't enjoy the same things that handful of us are on the top of the pyramid enjoy it has been either steady or down. And why
is that? Because uh the same things that made us so great back in the old days where we were the city of first internet started here but our soil was not
fertile enough. It had to go to Silicon Valley. Biotech should have been growing here but instead it went to Boston and other places. So we don't have a history
in the past 80 years of pure leadership in any of the sectors. If you think about today, if you had to say uh what are the most cutting edge industries of
the future, one can say it's quantum computing, distributed financing, decentralized financing, it would be climate science, robotics, uh you know,
biotech, tech, bio, all of those things that uh are driving the industries of the future where few cities are dominating, handful of cities, Shenzan,
you know, five or six cities in China, Singapore, few cities in Denmark and and then of course Austin, Silicon Valley, Seattle, etc. Philadelphia doesn't fall
on that on that category. Maybe in biotech now because of pen medicine and uh what we noticed in 2014 uh when we launched the germination
project is that is that the best and the brightest in our city don't leave Philadelphia because they want to. They have family members here. They have
roots here. But if you're going to do anything, if you're a kid who just graduated from Stanford, uh, and you want to work on algorithms or language
or you want to work on quantum, well, you have to go to Yale, you have to go some other place because that's where the funding is. That's where the
opportunities are. That's where the cluster of companies are. So you even if you want to live here, there is nowhere to give the resume to,
right? Even at Comcast, you're not going to get that kind of work. You can get that work in biotech by doing research at pen
medicine. Sure. which by the way is number one licensing revenues in biotech. So you can see we are a factory of innovation,
brand new innovation. U mRNA paper was written here, crisper was monetized here. So all these great things are coming out of pen medicine and job. But
there is no industry. Why? There is no trained labor force. There's no adequate lab space and and equipment. Uh there's certainly no capital. So the companies
that start here have to be uprooted and have have to go somewhere else. So, our bet was long-winded answer in germination was what if we had a 50-year
bet and giving the best and the brightest PE kids a reason to stay connected for life because they get a lifetime fellowship and along the way
remind them that they're going to be successful with or without us. Sure. But why not have a purpose-driven life where their collective purpose is
larger than their own and the vision that they have for this city for both the bottom of the pyramid as well as the top pyramid would be longer than their
collective lifespan. Um and it's a hope that that fellowship that's that fraternity and sorority of these brightest people will stay connected in
the long run. You know it will benefit not just Philadelphia but humanity. I believe in the promise of few leading many. I also believe that uh if few are
purpose- driven and are passionate that have to sacrifice their selfish deans, they can still do a lot of great things. It's now 11 years into the 50-year bet
and uh we have 190 I believe now fellows and this weekend to uh Saturday, Sunday is our second weekend where we're interviewing for the new batch. The 10th
graders come in and they get to between 15 to 20 fellows are announced each year and they keep adding to the cohort. So that's the germination project.
Wonderful. Wonderful. No, I'm picking up on on the fact that you know there is no uh der of intellectual horsepower here in
Philadelphia. We got Upupen, we have Drexel, we have Temple. But I think it's the missing ecosystem around it, I guess, right? Is the infrastructure
around it which is uh very strong in Boston, very strong in Silicon Silicon Valley, very strong in maybe even New York. I think it's that part that is
missing. I I I think of the top tier talent. If you're talking about who's going to do, let's say you want to create a company
in quantum computing, even if you're the smartest, technically soundest person, you still need capital, you still need a cluster of folks to do
business with. Um, and it's just easier. It's easier to shop at a mall, right, than it is uh to drive around um, you know, 30 minutes for everything on your
shopping list. And Boston is a mall for biotech. It didn't happen overnight, right? It happened over 80 years, right? you
know they did a 80 years plan Silicon Valley 80 years um of both federal state local universities companies uh big big pharma little biotech all of them
collaborating to create that ecosystem um and we I I think we can we can do that but it'll take a mindset shift it is not our priority it's not the city
you know we're but we are a city of neighborhoods we're gritty um but but you know there are high schools that you can remember that
are known for sports. They're known for gritty etc. But they not may not be the Baldwins, the Havfords or the Centrals and the Mastins, right? Because they're
not academically elite. I don't think when somebody really objectively our zeitgeist is not to be academically
elite to be the next cutting edge even though we can be because Penn is here, Temple's here, Drexel, we grant more degrees than any other city in the
country. So the intellectual horsepower clearly there but the best and the brightest have to leave because you know they have to live their lives too.
And I I hate to ask a political question but do you think uh state has something to do with it? Do you think state is supporting
um you know the entrepreneurship or or u not like Massachusetts there's no record of it. I mean, if you can objectively say I I think we're whether city council
or state, you know, we the many of them are friends and I think we're big on the pep rally, but very few people show up at the game. Um we are our solommonic
wisdom normally is to uh kill the goose, everybody eats in one nice meal as opposed to focusing or investing on the on the golden egg.
Whereas Massachusetts thinks differently, Colorado thinks differently, North Carolina thinks differently. There are states that have
made long-term bets. But long-term bets, as you know, anybody that goes into college or PhD, you're going into massive debt
with the hope that you may propel forward in the future, right? That's not the typical mindset for 80 or
90% of the public, right? They would not see that initial investment, that sacrifice, that delayed gratification. And it's the same thing with states. It's the same thing with
the city council. Some city councils are built for long term. China is built for 100 year. So is now what we're doing with our AI
infrastructure. We we then there are certain countries that are constantly, you know, dealing with the weather of the day as opposed to climate.
Where do you feel that the US fits in globally and like the adaptation or the the long-term planning versus short-term planning?
I think right now we're uh in race with China for long term. Absolutely. for the 100 year race. Whoever wins the next 5 years, I think wins the 100 years.
Okay. So, you think the short-term drive is driving that long-term vision? Just same reasons why during the
industrial revolution, whoever whoever won the railroads and steam engines and the steel and the production won the long term.
Yeah. Why? And this one is even bigger. It's the same thing with internet. the first mover advantage once you have an
Amazon and the moat that you create once you're that big then compounds because you can scale easily right
handful of companies not nation states not city states but a handful of companies and individuals will control the next hundred years and if you have
them in the US then I think we have a winning shot at determining the fate of humanity for the next hundred years but China is a significant rival and in some
cases they have an edge over us because it's a lot easier to manage when it's top down with, you know, when civil liberties are not an issue here.
Sure. You know, you put 10 people in a room, you have 10 opinions, right, I feel like you're in one of our
classes. We have like a global a global uh we could do a podcast on on on US, China, you know, the competition and the rivalry and how we going to get out of it. And on the way
here, we were talking about that and one of the conversations we're having is, you know, there is this focus, right? US versus China right now. It's very heavy
focus. Very heavy focus. But I always like taking a step back and go like, why does it matter so much? And
so why do you think it matters? Like you say, it it drives drives the future. It drives like where our world is going to be. But why is winning that race so much
more important than another country winning that race for the next 100? Uh um let me give you a couple of reasons. If
we believe that AI, artificial intelligence, robotics, decentralized financing, uh if these are the kinds of climate
science, if these are the industries of the future, biotech, then you want to be in the top tier. I mean that it matters, right? You know it matters in terms of
whether or not you have jobs, prosperity, how you shape things. Of course, you know, we have soft power. Hollywood
has always been the soft power. Even our uh franchises, McDonald's, even our sports teams, even the uh cricket in India is played and the the leagues are
being developed very much like the NFL. Our soft power has always been big. They listen to our music, they wear our jeans, they they watch our movies.
Whereas top down culturally even if China wanted to be a soft power winner they won't because it's it's not the same right countries like South Korea
for example can because it's a bottom up it's an entrepreneurial kind of a whereas similar to the US but you don't see that top down countries whereas
national propaganda it just doesn't work so we have maintained a very large soft power advantage over China for generations the chances are that even if
the cars manufactured in China are going to be cooler in general. You trust products that are made in America because it's it's we still have that
brand. In terms of other competitive reasons why it matters, the AI race and robotics will be won in terms of whoever has the
most energy supply of energy. That means rare earths 89% of rare earth supply and this is in China. This is why we talk about Greenland.
Well, that's so when you know that they have a gun to your head that the supply chain sovereignty is with China, then you have to have a hedge and even though
you know it's not about liking or not liking Trump, but if you look at why we cared about Panama Canal because we wanted to make sure that the
Chinese interest did not get there and we went there. Why we why do we care about Greenland? Because it's an hedge. It's not a complete replacement of the
supply chain sovereignty, but it's a hedge. Why did we go to Venezuela? because bulk of the discounted oil then crude that China gets even though it's
an electro state becoming an electro state currently they still are reliant on petro fuel and where do they get that Venezuela and Iran and so why are they
all connected they're all connected because we are slowing down a competitor right that if they have access to the same if
they have the Nvidia chips they have older Nvidia chips not because if they have the same gas and the same fuel and their Ferrari and we're in a race with
them, you know, they have an advantage and that's why it's so important to slow them down. Our geopolitics of war in Iran is not really just about the Middle
East. It's really all roads lead to Beijing. This is really a all they're all interconnected to Beijing.
It's interesting. I wonder why when you look at the news those these aren't the conversations. And I find that fascinating. Right. So, anytime
there's a canal issue, a Greenland issue, Iran issue, feels like we're so focused like traditional news is so focused on like the news of the day,
what happened, like what got struck or whatever. I don't think we have news anymore. I think it's more that's what it is.
I know we don't have we don't have Tim Russard. We're not we're not looking at fact. We can't even agree on facts. So, to me, it's not about ideology. It's
not about left or right. I'm looking at it just like you would do as a business person. You would look at the data regardless of
whether you like the people or not. You just sort of say what how are they connected? That's almost trying to make sense. Yeah. Trying to make sense of the why,
right? And there usually is a why and there's a pattern. Um Trump and this administration, it's either you like them or you don't like them. But even if you did not like
or did not like, if you just look at the data, you sort of see that there is a strategy beyond the chaos. Absolutely.
That it's the bull running inside the dust storm. But the question really is not being a fan or foe of the bull, but instead trying to figure out where the
bull is heading, what the direction is. And that's what business people do. That's what policy. Look, we're not he's playing geopolitics in a diff with
different rules. No rules, transactional rules. very much like a construction and a real estate guy where even our defense guarantees are based on transaction.
Even our allies are transaction. You NATO put up 5% for your own defense otherwise we're not going to pay for it. So we everything is a transaction. Once
you put that lens on then whether you agree or not doesn't matter. Then you can simply see the pattern of pattern recognition why they're doing it
right. Uh then you can project out whether it's for your business or for your city etc. then you can either ride the waves or
continue to crash into the waves. It doesn't matter. This is going where it's going. And China is a formidable
and and by the way, we live in a much more dangerous time than we did before. Um it's a lot easier to have a military conflict with simple cheap drones that
are easy to manufacture. Is very difficult to play defense. We live at a time where cyber warfare is very cheap uh to infiltrate. We live at a time
where our social media bulk of it is flooded by Iranian and and Qatarian or Chinese or Russian. You know where these are social media bots that are telling
you and dividing all of us and we have no idea. We have no idea. If you asked the average person, they would probably say they would be able to spot a bot, right? I bet the
average person would say like I could do it. And then I bet if you actually studied them they would be like oh for 100.
If you put five people in a room you ask them to recite facts there'll be disagreements about basic facts. So forget about opinions
five. So then you go well who is the arbiter of deciding who's good facts or not good facts. Is it CNN? We already know what that bias is. Is it Fox? We
already know what that bias is. Even BBC which we used to think was where you would go uh for you know straight news as opposed to opinion columns
even they now are now behind the curtains we now know that they have bias. So where do you go for straight straight facts? Uh and you cannot
imagine if you're a young person or you know especially when we're so polarized after the pandemic I think you know we went in a dark place
into the dark recesses of our brains where we're polarized we're uh spitfire angry at each other. Uh it's very easy to identify your tribe
u be in a ghettos of grievances live in it and then attack the other and and have your own tribe. I think it was like six years ago or so. I remember so I I
had I got some digital marketing experience under me and I and the company I was working for had owned like 500,000 phone numbers and they would
give you a different tailored experience for and a different phone number to track you, right? Like and every time you went to that site, you'd see the
same phone number, but they just knew it was you because of your internet cookies and everything. And then I started wondering, hey, like if I go to a
website and if I VPN to a different city, am I going to get a different different thing? Absolutely. And that's something that's one of those super simple things, but like literally
in Philadelphia, you're going to get a different experience based on who you are in your profile than I am in Colorado. Right.
Well, your your flight is going to be more expensive depending how many times you search it. And I imagine how AI is going to be even more supercharged.
Amps that up. Yeah. So, so yeah, I hope we get back to that. I'm a net optimist by the way in the long run, but but but I think um there will be a lot of turbulence, job
displacement, sense of purpose displacement when technology starts doing what you do even better. There is a loss of sense of purpose that
you have uh in the interim. I'm sure people who were in the agricultural revolution transitioned to the industrial revolution went through that
industrial to internet went through that internet to big data went through that shared services revolution but those were all mini quakes this is an
earthquake there's an earthquake so that kind of ties into our studies a little bit so I got to do it because
because of this podcast that was one of our assignments it's like is AI going to be a a massive job displacer like the industrial revolution more or less
what's the extent It was like we we trying to compare uh it to a general purpose technology like electricity or steam
right when they came about they enable a lot of other stuff right so AI is doing something similar it is enabling a lot of other stuff around it so will it
follow the same path like uh how lexity and and steam has followed or is it different this time so I don't know Kevin what you did but I argued in in
the uh that I argue that AI is different than electricity and and steam and all the other general purpose technologies
because AI is kind of sort of does things by itself electricity you to put it to use that it impacts a whole different level
of yes it is impacting completely different way so what do you think about that uh I you know I u I think it's so different that there is a template for it
because it's the first technology. We went from um animal strength to machine strength, right? We would had uh we had bulls and others doing the work in the
fields to machines doing it uh to internet where we sort of was more of aggregation of data where everybody sort of had access democratized data. That
was that. And then we went to the shared services where you could then actually have a guy with a car can be matched with a guy who needs a ride. That's
Uber, Airbnb, etc. That's shared services and uh big data, all of those things. But this is the first time where
technology has the ability to not only think like humans, but has the ability to think as the collective humans, right? and robotics intersecting at the
same time. Androids uh uh intersect at the same time. So if you think about it, I am a human human. I have no butt implants, no breast implants, no uh
artificial knee or or hips that I can admit to. Not yet. Uh and and no ear implants, no pacemaker. I am a human human.
Then I know I know when people say that then we have to question it, right? question. Maybe I'm one of those
but but you're a human human if you have no implants, right? Okay, let's let's start with that definition. Then the second definition is the person I just described. Whether
it's breast implants to any of those devices in your body, you're now a bionic person. You have instruments in your body. Therefore, you are an
android. Okay. Okay. But you are a analog android. These are dumb systems. Whether pacemaker is a little smarter, pacemaker a little smarter, but in general these
things are not thinking for you. They are working like a machine. They're like a machine. Now imagine what Neurolink is doing,
what Musk is doing, where you're interfacing your brain signals with technology. And now imagine five years from now where Claude is inter
integrated with your brain. Correct. And and now you can download data. Now I imagine do we really need this eye? If you can actually control the brain
signal to the eye, you can replace it with a electronic eye that scans everything that can actually see like an owl. You will have eventually I believe
humans that are like Captain America, right? For warfare, you can already do if you want to ethically we just don't allow it. China,
I'm sure, and others are probably doing this study where if you want to have 30% uh faster brain power, memory, no ADHD, we will be able to genetically modify
our color, our height, our strength, etc. So now imagine that world. Does that sound like steam engine or or Yahoo or Microsoft or does it sound like Uber
or Airbnb? Right. No, I agree. Right. This is this is superhuman. We're playing God at this point where
technology is not just doing the thinking for you. Look at claude what it's able to do or open AI in just two years everybody said you know well it
hallucinates today not really not much I mean it gets instantly does the work of 30 people well I mean more than 30 people I mean
it's 24/7 you know doesn't rest of course it takes a lot of energy it drains there are negatives and positives to all of it but
we're entering a whole new era right now we are obviously generative generative language uh phase soon it would start having consciousness almost like similar
to like they'll have you know very soon I think singularity is not that far away for us well agentic AI is I mean I don't know
how many people are using it but you can have thousand agents working for you while you're sleeping right I mean I I think somebody made out maybe it was
Elon Musk made the statement that we are not very far away when one person will be running a billion dollar company all by himself
I I think that can happen this year, next year. We're not we're not that's not a five or 10 years away. That's that's a this year problem.
It is a near future. I mean, the issue isn't there is no issue of labor at all anymore. Yep. There and and that's
it's different. I I I think it's different. I mean, you will still I still believe there will be enough jobs, but it'll be different.
Do you do see I don't there it'll just be different. It'll be it'll be a different kind of work. Um I I I think it will create more
opportunities, different types of things that we will be able to do that we couldn't do before. It'll just be faster. So we we may not do the same
things just like just like Ezekiel and Jebidiah working on the fields were doing different type of work. Today the same people working on the farm are
sitting on a tractor doing the same thing. You don't need 30 people doing it. Right? My grandfather growing up in Kerala with agriculture you had multiple
people working in the fields you know now the same place we don't have land there anymore but I'm sure it's few people a lot of machines right
things will change so somebody was saying that you know FISA needs you know 100 PhD in in in biochemistry we can spin them up
we can spin them up in in chat GPD or in open AI or cloud or whatever and there you or 100 instances of PhD level, you know, uh, uh, open AI kind of
model sitting out there is going to start working for you. It'll be different kind of work. I think they'll be more else this purpose-driven
stuff. I I I I do agree with you that, you know, the kind of work that we think about those jobs will go away. Sure.
You know, but I think they'll be different. But I do, you know, let me let me uh take some of my thoughts back and agree with you.
It's not allowed. You have to be stubborn. No, no. On this one, I I do see a world where we will have a need for universal
basic income and others because we will not have enough Yes. things for work for people to do because
machines and others by the way at that point things will be cheaper because it'll be easier to produce. It'll be more abundant. So therefore,
it'll be a different it will be a different world. I challenge see I challenge that a little bit because I think this revolution is controlled by a
small amount of people and I agree with that because so was the industrial revolution so was the internet but go ahead but this is even smaller go ahead
well how was the internet I I get the industrial handful of the you server in your in your house true it democratized but the real players
if you had to sort of igopy of people that control the internet revolution there were a handful you Not all were created equal. The guy creating a website uh may think that
they were an internet business person but it was not Steve Jobs. It was not the Bill Gates. You go and look at the industrial revolution you think about
eight or 10 people right Carnegie etc. When you think about who really shaped who really shaped the internet revolution
that's not a very good argument then to say to you it's not a good argument to say hey it'll AI is controlled by a small group and so it'll change like
that's kind of irrelevant because in the past we've seen that. you know, one guy created uh uh banking, maybe one guy created uh and I use the word guy
intentionally because that's what they were back then. But they didn't control the data centers like they will now, right? They won't
control like where and how the information flows like AWS being AWS. Rockefeller controlled 90%. He was the he pretty much so you know you have
Carnegie you know monopolized steel. So you had all of that, but then it created all these spillover things, all these other jobs for plumbers and electricians
and others because each time a new innovation happens, humans being creative find new ways to create businesses. Look, there was a time when
you just had a a mortgage, lender, borrower, you had to put money in and then came structured finance. You could bundle up the mortgage and create
dollars on top of dollars and synthetic financing and then you can take cars and package it together with homes and you can create junk. You know we are masters
in terms of creating something out of nothing out of nothing. We are good adaptive people aren't we in general.
Yeah it's true. Well because I think about it and I I wonder does it help or hurt the small business? You know Ashweeni is like you know spent a lot of
his life in small business. I love small businesses. Oh yeah. It's the lifeblood. That's the lifeblood of America. It is
right. It is. I mean 90% of our economic activity is actually created by by small business. I mean I could talk about it for hours. Yeah. And we will I'm sure at some
point. Yes. And I and I what I've seen currently where AI is now, it's absolutely just helping small businesses tremendously. Because
with the short term. Yeah. But it also displays them very quickly. That's what I'm wondering. So the guy
who used to bring milk to your front door in the Leave it to Beaver era, you know, very quickly Target and Whole Foods and and others, I mean, mom and
pop stores went away because malls and Home Depot and others because and for, by the way, for good reasons. You know, cababies lost to Uber. Uber drivers will
lo lose to Whimo. It's good for the consumer, but is it that comes at a great cost for the families that had medallions, invested
in medallions and cabs, and then eventually, you know, who are Uber drivers today, freight drivers, all of those jobs will go away. Well, when the
the largest jobs that number of jobs that people have driving, you know, whether they're delivering Uber or they're running driving freight trucks,
etc., all of those jobs in the near future, near future will be automated driverless cars. The same thing is happening to now let's say accountants,
travel agents you know and if you were to believe Kosla he's predicting that that PCBs you know the doctors you know the the physical I mean the the family
care physicians oh yeah the family care physicians going to go away right it'll be all taken over by so
the same thing has happened with travel agents remember we used to have travel agents earlier we don't have travel agents anymore
you will have wearables it's not that difficult to have wearables that measure alert and uh if you're having a heart uh event, there's no reason why your toilet
cannot measure your liquids on a daily basis. AI in my bedet like just key I don't want any draw the light there. What if the AI in a bedet tells you
whether or not you have problems with sugar and cholesterol? And by the way, I got my blood test. It was pretty much the same ingredients as a
potato chip. high sodium, high cholesterol and lots of toxins. So, so you know, but there but there is the the good stuff when you know too much
about your health. When you know and when AI can predict exactly how many days you have left because of your heart is failing. I
don't I don't know if you want that. Yeah, exactly. But we're living at a unprecedented era. I I think anybody that tries to
um compare streaming to DVD and Blockbuster, it's just it's a it's not going to work because it's a it doesn't have a precedent. This is so different.
Yeah, it's it's tough too. So, you know, my research is around AI and specifically about like the awareness level for people and like what AI can do
and capabilities and how important is that for people. But to your point, you go back and look at any, you know, any previous era, right? And that's what any
professional will say. It's like go back and compare like previous eras to see and it's like, man, this just doesn't feel right.
But also, it'll it'll actually change the brain architecture. Yeah. As well, uh how we communicate. Our
verbiage will change because we will start sounding more and more like Claude and Chachi PT. Kids are using it in school. uh your ability to have
elasticity of your brain to sort of read as opposed to reading on the digital has changed our brains how we process information how creative we are or
whether we are just compliant because somebody has told us there's a big difference between knowing a content and critically thinking and pushing back we
will not push back as much with AI as opposed to just absorbing the information that we get so the brain architecture is going to change the
social interactions will change the how we speak with each other will change soon you know we will mimic and AI will mimic us and we will mimic them
right I think that's already happening it is already happening it's already happening I don't know if the academy likes it actually to be honest with you one of
the thing that I'm at least I'm feeling at temple the university academy has set up setup is um a little bit of resistance to AI do you feel that Kevin
um I think there is that fear that you're losing that ability to critically think and I think that's what professors hold
on to and that's right don't lose the ability to the last bastion to question critically think is being they're not sure whether the students going to lose
their ability I I I I think there's a bit of a leite thinking in that right we we thought the same way about uh you
know when trains were there people thought it will fry your brain and it's not good for you and uh every new technology is a threat and uh the
vernacular of the learned were so used to an old world. It seems like a threat to them and their way of thinking. But AI can also be, you know, you can still
be creative. Imagine Steve Jobs with Claude. Right. Right. Right. That's what Michael Sailor is with AI.
Be the master. If you look at Michael Sailor, he will tell you um he created multiple new companies and new products by asking AI
to help him devise it. So he started with the creativity. Imagine Pablo Picasso with AI and asking thousand other questions and having so many
apprentice really working with you. Every possible artist ever created right next to you and having a conversation with them saying what would you do here?
What's the psychological underpinning? Imagine if I'm creating a work but I also want to tie it to mathematics or or or uh astronomy. Now I don't have to go
18 months into a you know I can just sort of find the and then I can ask them what are the cross is there any symmetry between the distance between here and
the moon and and maybe I can create a piece of art that is similar to that but now I can integrate multiple disciplines because I have access I'm I'm a you know
we have 18 companies in the biotech space so they're all in cancer research and obesity space. uh I was a chemistry major a graduated with education degree
at Temple but I was a biochemistry major as well I don't remember the periodic table I know nothing but now with while my colleagues are talking about
macrofasages or you know hax 6 or hex 6 inhibition or suppressing this protein versus I have to have a AI right next to me and I'm just as engaged with them
because as they're speaking I'm looking looking and it's it's and iterative I'm I I can keep asking questions after the call's over I can keep asking asking
going deeper and deeper into rabbit hole you couldn't do that 5 years ago you can't you couldn't do that and you either had your lane as an expertise
either they were the learner and there were others who was just sort of waiting looking from outside in now you could if you wanted to the
buffet available anyone with curiosity so curiosity now if you have it you have more tools And I think now it's a neverending
buffet of opportunity. Steve Steve Jobs today would be lethal with AI. Imagine what he could have done. That's exactly what Elon is.
Or or Palanteer, the guys at Palunteer, Alex and others. So I I think it's not an issue of, you know, um um don't use GPS because you're not going to remember how to. Yes,
there's some truth to that. It's fun to read maps directly. doesn't matter if you have GPS everywhere. My point is why does it matter whether you used uh your
natural sense of looking at the sun and where the shade is today to decide how to track and how to go or whether you look at a map oldfashioned or whether
you have a memory or whether you're using GPS or better than GPS's ways where crowdsource crowd people are telling you don't go here there's delay
here to me technology doesn't change it of course the brain is different I am somebody who is um uh is is disabled
when it comes to direction and and very much challenged. I get lost everywhere. So, it was a huge thing for me uh democratizing in terms of how to get
somewhere because I have now a tool, right, that helps me get anywhere, right? It's amazing. It really is amazing, you know. I mean, uh I I I don't understand.
I couldn't agree more with you, Ajay. I think it is definitely it's like trying to complain about not learning tables anymore. Do you remember learning tables
or memorizing tables? time tables or the time tables. Yeah. I I mean I think those as educators as educators there is something to be said
about you know whether let's use physical as example just because you have to move doesn't mean you shouldn't move. There's something to be said about making sure
your hips are mobile and you're getting up and same thing with the brain. You have to treat it. You know if you don't read the newspaper your brain changes
and it's the elasticity of it changes neuroplasticity changes your brain like it moves a lot until like what early 30s I think and then
that's when you start but but but the neuroplasticity of the brain you start thinking differently so of course you have to keep it fresh
so I agree that if you can do analog as well as digital but don't be the one who uh says I'm not going to use the aid of technology walk when you
could be in a in a car going 80 or 100 miles hour. Especially I mean it's free, right? Like I mean I say it's free, but it really is like even if if you don't
have money, you have a phone. Like I think it's what 98% of homeless people have a phone, right? You're going to have internet access. You're going to have the free version of
all these things out there. Like you you can I think go back to the metaphor. Even if you have a a Ferrari where you can go
100 miles per hour, still knowing how to walk and having the ability to walk is also important. So both are important. It's just if you have an advantage using
technology, don't be why not take it. Yeah, that makes sense. True. No, I totally agree. I mean, you know, how many courses have we been explicitly
told at least definitely um Lynn Anderson's that please do not use use AI? I I think the challenge there I wonder if is if you're going to judge or
grade people you want to be able to sort of say did they do independent work was there maybe the question is not about whether or not you're using technology
as much as you know I not even original work as much as did you get because I don't know you know I have this debate with young
people all the time with this generation when they say nothing is original I don't mean that I I do original work I go you you know name a movie that is
original that is not Shakespeare or Bible everything is a plagiarism built on other things. So uh I the originality is
taking what you have and then cooking it up and creating a soup with it and this what's the difference between whether it's AI or internet but there's
something to be said about if you have 10 students and you're trying to give them grade if everybody can just do a prompt and two seconds later give an
answer what have they learned and how do we judge them in terms of effort in terms of participation I think there's a there's something to be said about that
maybe we're teaching them wrong things right I mean now the the biggest emphasis I feel I mean the first year students is on synthesizing what you've
been asked to to read like we have to read like 500 papers and synthesize what are they trying to say you're doing I can I can I can get it I can get Chad
GB to do it for me in 10 seconds I think it's look we uh when you were talking about um early days education where you had to memorize multiplication
tables and the nun would hit you if you got it wrong I grew up in that arena era. Um but today a calculator can do that for you and uh but how to think why
you think is more important than what what true. So so so the what becomes a commodity even the why is becoming commodity but
you still need to have you need to work out that part of the brain that can be independent if everything goes dark. So you have to I think just because you
have it doesn't mean just because you can make the coffee uh by just pressing a button doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn how what the process was.
Yeah. You know I get the general theme that you know only because you can do it doesn't mean you should. Yeah. By the way you can do 10 more
things now because technology is so advanced that things you can even imagine doing today. Anybody can create music.
Anybody can create music any language. You can use your voice and create movies. I mean you can create art. So that means you don't have to only be
Spielberg to create movie. You can create a website. You can be a coder overnight. Remember those were the hardest jobs. You can code now. So there
was something something great about that. I think that you can democratizes everything. Yeah. The coding is a is an interesting
one because I'm I'm close to that world a little bit and it's interesting to see it's almost like it's split. You either have the coders who are totally
embracing the wave of technology and producing and probably not working as hard either to be completely honest and then you have the ones that are just
aren't embracing it. And it's you would think it's there's an age difference and there's not. It like I would think that older folks would be the ones not
embracing AI but I'm not seeing that like anecdotally for me. And so you just have this group of this, you know, I'm going to embrace it, I'm
not going to embrace it. And it's to the will this matter in the future or I don't think it's gonna matter. I mean you can have man-made uh diamonds
or nature made diamonds and you know humans have a nostalgia for nature made. You could do modular construction uh or you can do handcrafted uh with with
people skills. Humans have nostalgia for that. I think even if AI generates beautiful art and beautiful music I think there will still be part of the
world that craves for human interaction and the human created. So I think there there will be an analog world that is not digital because we will crave it.
When I was in in in in 1980s growing up uh Nifty50s was a big deal because it was a nostalgia for the 50s you know the and then you had movies that were with
James Dean and others that were kind of nostalgia for the you know 50s. So humans you know we have feelings and you know we like the past as well as the
future. Technology doesn't have to be your enemy nor does it have to be your friend. It is there. It is an enhancer. It's an accelerant. Uh but these debates
can be silly and superolous if you don't need it to have them because it's it's just a weapon. It's an armor or a shield if you want to use it. But you don't
have to use it. You can be creative and not use it. And I bet you some billionaire is going to be created who's going to use nothing but organic without
any technologies. And that's also going to be wanted probably. We're going to crave it. Actually, humans will. For me, it's the addiction side of technology
that makes it where that analog side gets a little lost in our conversations, right? Like when we I intentionally like have this note notepad here,
right? You know, and not not a phone or or or a you know, iPad or something. Yeah. Exactly. And even you look at some
of like the the best podcasts out there, they have, you know, that their iPad and they're just taking notes there and it's like
Right. I mean, we have a with the attention span of a fly these days and there's a reason for that because our brains are conditioned for quick and
you know the podcast um you would think when everything is supposed to be 10-second clips. Yeah. Why did podcast become successful? Because it was so much of the 10-second
that you then started craving the opposite, right? I mean, look at Joe and he's doing three-hour podcasts. Right.
So when I uh you know I have a show for 6ABC called Overheard and the producers said you know can you make them tighter? Can you make them quick answers? Can
and I intentionally said no this is going to be long form conversations where it's meandering but structured. You know I don't take notes and and what
it is is it's it's not it's different is is not good. Sometimes you just want get to the point. my articles. I read a column. My friend
Lisa Roberts always says, you know, I can't get through them. And I put it on chat GPD so I can give me what is Ajay saying? Give me the summary. And I said,
you can do that. And she is fighting me to make them shorter. I'm not going to do that. These are meant to be long form.
Long form. These are meant to be policyheavy. My challenge is to make kale tasty. Yeah. and to talk about deeper topics
without actually just you know the subtitles but instead dig a little bit historical context market trends of today underlying reasons why even if non
ideological based prism you know throw back to the Tim Russer type um articles or or or George Will type articles where even if you have an ideology even if you
have an agenda even if you have a position bit more layered as opposed to a quick which we now do which is we want 3 seconds
3 seconds and our brains have moved on. Uh mine are don't read. I'm not writing for a larger audience. If there are two people reading it that's fine. You know
I'm writing for myself. Yeah that's that's us. I think we've had you know 20 20 viewers or something. I I I guess so. But there's going to be
one person that clicks on this when we have a million and they be like, "But in our defense, Kevin, in our defense, I must say that we have
not we have not taken the time. We haven't created those clips, right? We have not taken the time to popularize it as yet at least, right?
Well, AI has done some good clipping for us, but sure, you just got to connect it to our all of our socials." No, I agree with we we doing this for
ourselves. Yeah. I mean, if we get if we get audience, I think that'll be a bonus in my view. I think if you talk to bulk of your
friends, right? Um, one of the reasons why I no longer do social engagements or parties etc. is because I don't have the ability to give short form answers. If you ask me a
question, I'm going to give you a long form answer. Correct? It's just how my brain is wired. And along the way, I realized that I am not
I'm a buzzkill at parties that I'm I can't just sort of have a basic conversation and I engage in every type of conversation, political, religious,
all those taboos that people try to avoid because I don't see them as taboos. I just see them as data points. And um and
that's not what you do in social circles. Uh, and so I am somebody almost at the spectrum where if I go to a party, I'm having these types of long
conversations over a cigar, but I'm definitely not mingling with everybody. That's what we need. Got a cigar here. I need to cigar. So, so I I think I
think there that art of conversation, the long long form conversation, uh, policyheavy, non-judgmental,
having and open having violent clashes of ideological differences, but in a spirit of learning, not in a spirit of converting. Um, that doesn't happen anymore. And,
you know, I would challenge you to say in the past three months, how many conversations have you had? Obviously you guys do this
but but if you in a real regular social basis it's just not welcome. Nobody wants because you're told to not go into detail. Matter of fact you know you
mingle you the minute you start having two minutes there's anxiety that person says well I'm going to go circle right and and that comes from the anxiety of
uh now you're talking about things that are a little bit more layered. Let's keep it superficial. Co didn't help that at all.
Made it worse. Made it worse. Yeah. But we every role you have there is taboo now. And I and I touched on
this in our last show, but like I I still find it strange that we're sitting behind microphones and we can have these conversations, but we can't have them
with our best friends. We can't have them with our family. We can't have them at work. Oh, yeah. You know, it's became impossible. So, how is it that putting yourself out
there in the world, you could be less, you know, like more engaged? And I You're right. remember we were talking about with Sunil I guess
that you know it's impossible to have a let's say a Thanksgiving dinner and and have these kind of conversation you can't
you just can't it it just I do and um um at the risk at the risk of cancel culture but my friends and family know that about me and um um I do it not
because I'm so stubborn about my views because my views change constantly I'm data driven and if tomorrow you tell me xyz
uh my ideological position on it will change because I I have a new lens or a new data point that shifts that's normal not and not normal and a
bad thing we were talking about talking about this drive up here that you know you should be able to change your viewpoint in the face of new
facts in the face of new circumstances maybe it's my legal training every time a new evidence comes in you have to sort of weigh it with the
overall that could be right but also I think the idea of walking into a debate already convinced of a
position um is what we are now. You're already either woke or MAGA. You're left or right, you know, labels everywhere or Pepsi or you know and then your job is
to and matter of fact who you identify with becomes your identity. It becomes your job. It becomes how you make money. It becomes a tribe you have. And it's so
so even if somebody else gives you the cure for cancer, but if it's other party, somebody who's in the other side of the party, that's the enemy. You're
not going to take the cure. You rather die than take the take the cure from that person. I think that uh started with the cancel culture. That started
with the tribes. That started with the lowest denominator dividing us as opposed to the higher denominator that unites us.
Right. That makes sense. Pretty heavy. Yeah. Right. Yeah. What do you do for fun? Well, he goes to things, he goes to
parties. I I have a really rich circle of friends from artist to business people to, you know, you name it. Um, you my fun is uh
um not the same fun as it used to be, but you know, I'm I'm usually around friends and uh really good friends. Cigar is my poison probably. I shouldn't
admit that for the insurance company. Um, you don't inhale. I don't inhale. But but I in general, you know, I I'm I'm blessed. I'm engaged with some of
the smartest people in the world. Yep. And doing some of the most cutting edge things in terms of business and civic.
So I'm I'm living um I'm living a life that is very much like a dream world type of a life. That sounds like it. I want to know a
little bit more about that fellowship. Right. So you have what what is that fellowship, right? What does it look like? You have you look for these kids
and then how do you help them along? That's interesting. You know, we we're um every weekend this month of March, we're doing interviews. So around 500 or
so applicants come in, applications come in and out of that maybe 70 advance to the interview round and this year 68 are being interviewed
for an hour by a panel. Imagine being a 10th grader. Yeah. But these are not like typical 10th graders. Imagine Kobe at 10th grade playing basketball or LeBron at 10th
grade. These are the best and the brightest and the conversations that they're having. If you're talking about Iran, it will be layered and layered and
layered because they are well read. They're hyper smart. These are the folks that are coveted at Stanford and Harvard etc. and they're even when they go there
the top of the class etc. So those are the kids just to set the stage. So the uh interview is not a scripted interview. It's much more of a sparring
session. I'm not looking to see if they had the right answer. I'm looking for a thought process. Correct.
Every kid at that level of resume with perfect GPA, 1600 SATs, etc. They all have 13 nonprofits that they have started. So, it's hard to tell how much
of that is performative, how much of that is needed for the school to get to the next level. So what we're looking for there is but you can still in those
conversations like where we're just having right now you can find out the ones who for whom it's not just a means to an end but a sense of passion and
purpose or that crazy kid who is into robotics so much that doesn't that is now giving up on grades because he's so into this.
So we're looking for those folks. Uh of course we miss some of them because grades are important. the writing, the personal statement, the letter
recommendations, all of these things that come in before they get an interview. But the interview process is where we
weed out and I'm sure we get it wrong, but look, some of the kids that we have who are now fellows, you know, several years in into their lifetime fellowship,
you know, many of them have one of our fellows, for example, took a year out of Stanford, raised money from Klein Perkins and and is now creating a second
company. Uh, one of our kids uh, working for Palunteer, Alex Karp, um, took a year, two years out of his undergrad at PAN, led a team, not part of a team, but
led a team that created for for Palunteer for the largest health system in Chicago, uh, an AI tool that prevents the spread of sepsis. So, so we're
talking about kids like that. These are kids who are riding dragons, right? So, we're hatching dragon eggs. they are the dragons. So it's u the trick is to find
that mutant uh uh and out of that 198 how many of them are the next jobs or the next president or the senators we have I have no doubt we have several
senators in the mix we have few you know US congressmen or women in the mix I believe we have many CEOs in the mix nonprofit executives but is there Mother
Teresa in the mix is there Gandhi in the mix is there Mandela in the mix is there jobs in the mix. Is there Albert Einstein in the mix? I do. I think you
know how many out of that 190. I think 30 are right now potential candidates. Out of that 30, how many of them will make it? Maybe zero. But
I have 30 that are real snipers. They're real snipers. Long-term bet. But these are real real snipers, you
know. And you look at them and what they're doing already at a young age, the way they think. and one of our this is 2015 Caleb Cloier one of our
germination early germination fellows uh he went to Yale back then because Yale was the top research university in quantum nobody was talking about quantum
computing in 2014 2015 he went to Yale cuz he wanted to be in an industry that was not here today will not even be here in the next 20 years but he wanted to go
into it earlier. We're talking about kids like that. Yeah. They're just different. How do you even think about that? Like, you know, I'm 16 and I'm like, "Oh, I
get to drive." You know, how do you get in the brain of a Picasso? How do you get in the brain of a Michael Jordan? I mean, these are
they're just mutants. You know, the trick is to find those mutants. Let me ask you this question, N. Um, sounds like to me, um, I mean, these
kids are going to be successful with without us, right? They don't need us. So when they ask us, some of the kids during the interview say, "Well, how would you describe
germination? What do you think germination is?" I say, "We're an organization about nothing." You know, and I I explain to them, "Let me explain
what we're not, and then I'll explain what we are, and you decide whether or not you still want to join what we're not. We're not an organization that
teaches you how to be a leader. We identify and it's a platform those who already have leadership traits. So we're not going to teach you how to be a
leader." Okay? What are we not? We're not an organization that gives you tools or resources or tells you gives you an initiative to say, "Why don't you tackle
this project or that project?" Then what the hell are we? If we're not giving you tools, we're not telling you what to do, we're not teaching you how to do it,
what do we do? We're merely a test kitchen where the world's best chefs come together. There is no oven. There are no ingredients. The the hope is that
these best chefs will come together, create the ovens, create cooking, doesn't have to be the traditional recipes, generate, and hopefully not
only enrich and feed each other and have a party, but feed humanity. This is a project where we're not telling them what crop to cultivate, how
to be farmers, to train them, to give them equipment, but it's a fellowship that identifies the best and the brightest, connects them for a lifetime,
charges them, charges them up with a sense of purpose larger than their own for a duration longer than their collective lifespan. This is no
different than the NBA where the best and the brightest play basketball. No different than a hospital where the best and brightest come together to serve the
patients. No different than the Manhattan project or the lunar project. This is an old formula. Few lead many. Bring them together. Give them a reason
to collaborate and all of a sudden good things come out. That's how Apple was formed. That's how Palanteer was formed. That's how all of these companies are
formed. So what we're that's how bands are formed. That's how concerts are created. So what we have done is merely that. Now
of course Pen Medicine does a boot camp for them. And if you look at the weeklong boot camp, it's Drew Weissman, the Nobel laurate, the head of the
cancer center. It's it's who's who of pen medicine 10 years in a row each of them come in, right? They're a medicine. So they get access.
No, no, they have access. They do have access. We accelerate things, but we don't give them. So for example, the fellows who get frustrated, they say we
have this idea um we want to do XYZ. Can you connect us or can you give us donations? Can you give? We said well are you giving us a project or are you
doing a project? Right? Because the idea is what we want is a self-starter who says, you know, for example, a group of our fellows who did this, they realized
so many people are dying unnecessarily from heroin addiction, but there's Narcan, but people don't know how to use Narcan to save a family member. So, they
took it upon themselves to learn how to use Narcan, worked with patent, and then went out to neighborhoods and taught family members how to use Narcan. That's
an example, right? So many people die in Philadelphia. If you have a heart attack and you're not near a hospital, your
survival rate is around 7%. Sure. Okay. Um, but imagine if every high school student when they graduate has to learn how to do CPR, tourniquet,
himlick maneuver, etc. Now you have everybody around you is a lifesaver, right? Imagine. So our kids went to Harrisburg to lobby Harrisburg to make
that high school graduation requirement. Then you had kids who sort of thought about using technology where you can have an app that immediately alerts
people that somebody's having a a shock and a peanut allergy or there were kids who now did that become their full-time? No, because these are creative kids who
are starting one project and they go to something else. But that's what we have. We have folks, you know, who have tremendous talent,
connect to others who have tremendous talent with different levels of interest. Now I imagine growing up together in over 50 years where the best
and the brightest with the connectivity of Philadelphia who have now seen the uh side the challenges of Philadelphia poverty etc
where it's not an abstract thing it's not charity but instead it's their community they work there thought about it and at the same time we're not making
them feel bad about creating a new technology making money becoming running for office these don't have to be mutually
exclusive things charity doesn't have to be at the end of the year where you give Honey, it should be part of the integrated into your life.
Totally agree with you. You know, when I was I was I mean six seven years back when I retired and I'm like what do I do with myself?
I mean I could go and volunteer my time in the soup kitchen and it's a great thing to do, right? But it doesn't have a multiplier effect, right? So I wanted
to do something which which has a multiplier effect for one one unit of effort that I put in. What comes out at the other end is five times or six
times. And there is nothing better than you know helping a small small business succeed because that changes not only their lives but the lives of the family
lives of the next coming generation and so on and so forth right so you were doing something similar as well I actually you know uh my colleagues
don't agree with this when a young law student comes in and says especially the top tier law students who have the top grades who are being coveted by large
law firms with big salaries but they have a sense of purpose they want to work instead in a nonprofit and they want to do meaningful work you know at
the community level with individuals one by one and it's a wonderful life to do that but then I think about the talent that that person young person has
and if they had resources at their hand an entire billion plus dollar revenue law firm now you can fund 100 nonprofits while you're still doing all of those
things. So the multiplier effect, the scaling effect, right, of a that's the what internet has taught
us and that's what is that certain things can scale faster if you have the ability. So both are meaningful and purpose- driven
lives, right? But if you can do um you know instead of shooting um one target at a time just to a spray approach of changing the world, you know, why wouldn't you do that? Um
absolutely. And there are some people who quite frankly I think it's a waste of their talent. um if if they had the ability to change humanity in a
meaningful way, but instead um they were just, you know, helping one be at a time instead of changing the whole climate. Makes sense. That makes sense.
Of course, I'm in the minority. All of my colleagues vehemently disagree with my worldview on that. They say you absolutely because they think that I'm
just snuffing that one person's uh passion for that community work. I you know I'm certainly the minority in that but I do believe that I think that young
person who has that kind of love for the community that kind of passion for individuals imagine if they have the ability to they are the ones who should
be running Goldman Sachs not the not the selfish guy who eventually only makes money. That's a good point.
You recruit them to be the president. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think this is a good spot to end it. Great. I appreciate you having you on. It's been a blast. Thank you.
And um and best of luck with everything that you're doing. Yeah, I think it's great work. Yeah, it's incredible. It's work.
You've got the right pants for the podcast. I promise. Thank you. I came came directly from the gym. Yeah, exactly.
Good. Uh appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Okay.
